[News] Panorama tonight will be interesting !

highflyer · Jul 12, 2019

Mouldy Boots said:
Meanwhile, labour has reportedly lost almost all their Jewish supporters.

But I don't see many of this board backing them, you will still vote for labour.

Principles, principles, principles and most of you will laugh at me for 'shirt gate', but at least I have principles.

Have you

Come on lefties are you prepared to boycott the labour party on the next vote?

Or just keep supporting Corbyn and the jew haters?

Thinks about writing a detailed thought through response about the complexity of politics, the nonsense of current media debates, the urgent problems I think the world faces (and most are ignoring) and why I support Corbyn (and more especially McDonnell and others in the leadership) despite a) not being Labour party member and b) many genuine concerns about the risks inherent in a Labour led government. Also why the status quo is unsustainable and how neoliberal right have run out of ideas and steam.

But decides you ain't worf it.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Jul 12, 2019

highflyer said:
Anti-Semitism is vile
Labour has a problem with Anti-Semitism.
Labour has failed to deal adequately with this problem.

Also

This post is so wrong as to be utterly ridiculous, and comparing the current Labour leadership with Hitler is not just offensive, but also exactly what convinces a lot of people that this is all just a smear campaign, with nothing behind it. Which is a problem in itself.

To be honest the Panorama programme last night didn't add a lot to what was already known. As per the first part of this post.

I have mouldy brains, chicken shit and live by the sick all on ignore which means I need read and consider only sensible posts by the likes of yourself.

Anyway, side-stepping the ordure of the triumphal hypocritical anti-labour weasels, one is left with considerable annoyance with the incompetance of the labour leadership over this.

Any fule in labour should know that pursuing a support for the Palestinian oppressed, and being a critical friend of Israel, is a very tricky combination to manage.

Any fule in labour must realise that conflating Jewishness, Zionism, Israel, and Likud is as foolish as conflating Englishness, Church of England, Conservatism and Tommy Robinson.

Any fule in labour must realise that letting people in the party get away with such conflation while, at the same time, having a leader who has gone out of his way to accomodate hairy-arsed elements of the muslim 'community' leaves the party open to accusations of bias, casual antisemitism and, if uncorrected.....

Any fule in labour must realise this has now become a trope. Jewish labour members resigning from the party while elements who are happy to do a bit of casual conflation (see above) are left unmolested. Oops!

It is such a shame. Corbyn can't simply trot out the usual old waffle about some committee or other is acting now to urgently formulate a measured response to this problem and let us not forget the oppression of the muslim community, I oppose all racism and all oppression, blah blah. The man doesn't get it and may as well walk around with a note saying 'kick me' pinned to his arse. The damage he has allowed to be done to the party (and the country by virtue of the absence of strong labour) owing to his total lack of leadership is very sad. Labour antisemitism may not be wisespread, but that is hardly the point. Be seen to be addressing the problem if you are leader. Be seen.

And of course the braying, on here and elsewhere, of the labour haters and prancing ninnies is, as the post above attests, likely to persuade many that 'labour antisemitism' is indeed just made up nonsense. Which I can only assume is exactly what they want, because it allows it to continue, with Corbyn doing nothing to fix it. Oh how the irony, and oh how I'd like to believe the prancing ninnies are smart enought to have actually hatched this cunning plan by themselves.

Titanic · Jul 12, 2019

And now Deputy Leader Tom Watson is coming under fire...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48959373

Labour's general secretary, Jennie Formby, has accused deputy leader Tom Watson of being "irresponsible" for criticising Labour's handling of anti-Semitism claims.

highflyer · Jul 12, 2019

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I have mouldy brains, chicken shit and live by the sick all on ignore which means I need read and consider only sensible posts by the likes of yourself.

Anyway, side-stepping the ordure of the triumphal hypocritical anti-labour weasels, one is left with considerable annoyance with the incompetance of the labour leadership over this.

Any fule in labour should know that pursuing a support for the Palestinian oppressed, and being a critical friend of Israel, is a very tricky combination to manage.

Any fule in labour must realise that conflating Jewishness, Zionism, Israel, and Likud is as foolish as conflating Englishness, Church of England, Conservatism and Tommy Robinson.

Any fule in labour must realise that letting people in the party get away with such conflation while, at the same time, having a leader who has gone out of his way to accomodate hairy-arsed elements of the muslim 'community' leaves the party open to accusations of bias, casual antisemitism and, if uncorrected.....

Any fule in labour must realise this has now become a trope. Jewish labour members resigning from the party while elements who are happy to do a bit of casual conflation (see above) are left unmolested. Oops!

It is such a shame. Corbyn can't simply trot out the usual old waffle about some committee or other is acting now to urgently formulate a measured response to this problem and let us not forget the oppression of the muslim community, I oppose all racism and all oppression, blah blah. The man doesn't get it and may as well walk around with a note saying 'kick me' pinned to his arse. The damage he has allowed to be done to the party (and the country by virtue of the absence of strong labour) owing to his total lack of leadership is very sad. Labour antisemitism may not be wisespread, but that is hardly the point. Be seen to be addressing the problem if you are leader. Be seen.

And of course the braying, on here and elsewhere, of the labour haters and prancing ninnies is, as the post above attests, likely to persuade many that 'labour antisemitism' is indeed just made up nonsense. Which I can only assume is exactly what they want, because it allows it to continue, with Corbyn doing nothing to fix it. Oh how the irony, and oh how I'd like to believe the prancing ninnies are smart enought to have actually hatched this cunning plan by themselves.

Given that I need to at least pretend to be working, I haven't got time to respond in as much depth as I'd like.. And it's probably a discussion better had over a pint anyway.

All I will say is that

1. I believe that (more by accident than design) Corbyn et al have found themselves in a position they were (understandably) completely unprepared for. They have spent a life time rebelling,which is hardly the best preparation for imposing party discipline,.

2. trying to win an election based on a minifesto of genuine, radical (and 100% necessary) social and economic change which is in direct opposition to the interests of richest and most powerful is a very different proposition from the Blair approach of 'win by getting the powerful onside and telling people what they want to hear'.

3. They are fighting against the full weight of the media (the coverage of Labour anti-semitism is correct and appropriate, but the repeated failure to mention the racist and anti-islamic views held in the Tory party, or to hold Boris accountable for his back tracking on an enquiry, is a disgrace) the lobbying power of the city and the visceral hatred (I have seen it first hand) of a large part of the PLP as well as the other parties.Chukka Ummuna doesn't hate corbyn because of anti-semitism or because of ideological differences. He hates him because the change in direction of the Labour party wiped out the career (as a centrist) he had mapped out, and worked all his life for. His anger is thwarted ambition made flesh.

4. In that light perhaps the ideas expressed by you and others of how well/badly they are doing vs a chaotic Tory party may be unfair.

None of that, as I hope I have made clear, remotely excuses the existence of anti-semitism in the party. And nor does it excuse the abject failures in tackling it. Corbyn is not a racist, but he's made very serious mistakes and it's going to be difficult to get it back on track.

But staying where we are is not an option. Climate change alone ensures that. The rise of the extremist right, the trumps, dutertes, orbans and bolsanaros mean that we need a reponse that is not just 'stay where we are'. We are going somewhere else now, and we all need to decide what we can do to steer the arc of history towards justice.

Gritt23 · Jul 19, 2019

beorhthelm said:
all just paper talk though isnt it?

To an extent, but it does also show the frustration and discontent that there is within the party. There certainly are a number of MPs who are getting increasingly frustrated by the lack of action that is being taken in the party to stamp this out.

The bit that got me about the documentary was when the guy was saying about being asked "What should we do about the anti-semitism" and when he answered along the lines of a strong speech from Corbyn, condemning the anti-semitism, and making a clear statement that he believes Israel do have a right to exist etc .... he was laughed at. The official response from Labour was that no such conversation happened. But even if it didn't (and I didn't believe their denial) why wasn't his answer what the whole party, including the leadership did anyway. It was an obvious response to the problem.

There must be a whole host of MPs who are just growing so increasing frustrated that these steps are not being taken, whether that particular conversation happened or not.

T.G · Jul 19, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
So despite ever growing evidence otherwise you believe Labour have dealt with this issue correctly ?

Where is this evidence that part of the whole issue...rumours and lies. When someone actually provides concrete evidence than I will look at it objectively. I asked someone this today and they replied I was an anti-semite. It's like arguing with children.

Gritt23 · Jul 19, 2019

T.G said:
Where is this evidence that part of the whole issue...rumours and lies. When someone actually provides concrete evidence than I will look at it objectively. I asked someone this today and they replied I was an anti-semite. It's like arguing with children.

So you always need proof, as if it's a court of law to form an opinion.

There are party members, employees, MPs, Lords, a former General Secretary all speaking up on how the Party has a problem and is failing to deal with it, but you don't believe them, and are confident that all is well with the Party. Unfortunately it is this sort of refusal to accept that there is a problem, which is permeating the upper reaches of the Labour Party, and is directly responsible for it not being properly addressed.

Neville's Breakfast · Jul 19, 2019

T.G said:
Where is this evidence that part of the whole issue...rumours and lies. When someone actually provides concrete evidence than I will look at it objectively. I asked someone this today and they replied I was an anti-semite. It's like arguing with children.

Try this website;

google.co.uk

SollysLeftFoot · Jul 19, 2019

T.G said:
Where is this evidence that part of the whole issue...rumours and lies. When someone actually provides concrete evidence than I will look at it objectively. I asked someone this today and they replied I was an anti-semite. It's like arguing with children.

You mean literally all the ****ing evidence being provided so far is not actually evidence just rumours and lies?

"it's like arguing with children" - You're exactly the problem, your reasoning is on par with flat-earthers. That's worse than arguing with children.

Lots of talk of the Tories being finished. Labour under Corbyn has been destroyed. Won't touch power for another decade. Attitudes like this are exactly why the Labour Party cannot succeed, de-facto defence of Corbyn, which means he'll remain leader for a long time before any change will happen and by then, all too late to reverse the damage done.

Westdene Seagull · Jul 19, 2019

T.G said:
Where is this evidence that part of the whole issue...rumours and lies. When someone actually provides concrete evidence than I will look at it objectively. I asked someone this today and they replied I was an anti-semite. It's like arguing with children.

I suspect the claims by Jewish MPs and Jewish members somewhat counts as evidence. And that statement is coming from someone that is VERY anti-Israel.

borat · Jul 19, 2019

There is no evidence to suggest that Labour are more Anti-Semitic then other parties. There are few studies on this but the YouGov Polls of 2015 and 2017 resulted in the following.

1) Conservative respondents held more AS views than Labour
2) Anti-semitism has reduced since Corbyn took charge.
3) Members of the Labour Party hold less AS views than the general population at large.

0.06% of actual Labour Members have been found to have guilty of AS.

Lets call this what this is - a concerted smear campaign spearheaded by various factions

1) Tories
2) Blairites in the Labour Party
3) Very wealthy concerned about Tax changes
4) Israel Lobby (No not anti-semitic to say that) due to his vocal support of Palestinian rights.

Corbyn has pushed and fought for the rights of Jews throughout his career.

Feel free to criticise his policies but to paint him as a racist or condoning racism is ridiculous.

drew · Jul 19, 2019

borat said:
There is no evidence to suggest that Labour are more Anti-Semitic then other parties. There are few studies on this but the YouGov Polls of 2015 and 2017 resulted in the following.

1) Conservative respondents held more AS views than Labour
2) Anti-semitism has reduced since Corbyn took charge.
3) Members of the Labour Party hold less AS views than the general population at large.

0.06% of actual Labour Members have been found to have guilty of AS.

Lets call this what this is - a concerted smear campaign spearheaded by various factions

1) Tories
2) Blairites in the Labour Party
3) Very wealthy concerned about Tax changes
4) Israel Lobby (No not anti-semitic to say that) due to his vocal support of Palestinian rights.

Corbyn has pushed and fought for the rights of Jews throughout his career.

Feel free to criticise his policies but to paint him as a racist or condoning racism is ridiculous.

I'll chance my arm and suggest you're a Corbynista?

borat · Jul 19, 2019

drew said:
I'll chance my arm and suggest you're a Corbynista?

I'll chance my arm and suggest that you gave a very weak response to my post.

If being a Corbynista means reading and analysing the evidence as presented and drawing logical conclusions then yes I might well be!

clapham_gull · Jul 19, 2019

borat said:
There is no evidence to suggest that Labour are more Anti-Semitic then other parties. There are few studies on this but the YouGov Polls of 2015 and 2017 resulted in the following.

1) Conservative respondents held more AS views than Labour
2) Anti-semitism has reduced since Corbyn took charge.
3) Members of the Labour Party hold less AS views than the general population at large.

0.06% of actual Labour Members have been found to have guilty of AS.

Lets call this what this is - a concerted smear campaign spearheaded by various factions

1) Tories
2) Blairites in the Labour Party
3) Very wealthy concerned about Tax changes
4) Israel Lobby (No not anti-semitic to say that) due to his vocal support of Palestinian rights.

Corbyn has pushed and fought for the rights of Jews throughout his career.

Feel free to criticise his policies but to paint him as a racist or condoning racism is ridiculous.

I'm sorry but it's simply not expected from the Labour party.

It's pure whataboutism to try and play a game of "whose more racist" ?, blame Blair or the Tories. The subject is the Labour party under Corbyn - don't change it.

If you were really a Socialist you would disown it, question the "cult of personality" and vote for another leader who is serious about tackling the problem. He simply isn't strong enough and is incredibly naive.

As a Socialist Leader of the Labour party, you do not:

1) Support a mural on Facebook with deeply antisemitic images that David Icke would be proud of.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...after-backing-artist-behind-antisemitic-mural

2) Agree to write the forward to the a new edition of a book authored by an openly Jewish blaming economist. "Brilliant, a great tome" wriote Jezza, "Absolutely deplorable language" said Jezza when tackled by the press.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/01/jeremy-corbyn-blind-antisemitism-hobson

Not fit to be the leader a Socialist Labour party. Nothing about his policies, everything about the man and the un-elected advisors propping him up.

If it wasn't for his ideological hatred of the EU, he'd probably (with Lib Dem support) scrape home at the next election.

Take your head out of the sand, he's keeping the Tories in power and right wing racism off the front pages.

Nice one Jezza.

borat · Jul 19, 2019

clapham_gull said:
I'm sorry but it's simply not expected from the Labour party.

It's pure whataboutism to try and play a game of "whose more racist" ?, blame Blair or the Tories. The subject is the Labour party under Corbyn - don't change it.

If you were really a Socialist you would disown it, question the "cult of personality" and vote for another leader who is serious about tackling the problem. He simply isn't strong enough and is incredibly naive.

As a Socialist Leader of the Labour party, you do not:

1) Support a mural on Facebook with deeply antisemitic images that David Icke would be proud of.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...after-backing-artist-behind-antisemitic-mural

2) Agree to write the forward to the a new edition of a book authored by an openly Jewish blaming economist. "Brilliant, a great tome" wriote Jezza, "Absolutely deplorable language" when tackled by the press.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/01/jeremy-corbyn-blind-antisemitism-hobson

Not fit to be the leader a Socialist Labour party. Nothing about his policies, everything about the man.

Take your head out of the sand.

Do the below actions detailed by Jewish Voice for Labour suggest someone who is anti-semitic? I repeat - he has always stood up for Jews.

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/fifty-times-jeremy-corbyn-stood-with-jewish-people/

You imply is weak yet he has taken years of all out attack from the majority of media who dont want to see him as PM.

Of course even low incidents of any form of racism is too much in any party but the coverage of this has been hugely distorted to imply a significant issue.

I believe most people want to hear more focus and solutions to issues such as a crumbling NHS, Brexit resolution, reducing poverty, environmental issues.

clapham_gull · Jul 19, 2019

borat said:
Do the below actions detailed by Jewish Voice for Labour suggest someone who is anti-semitic? I repeat - he has always stood up for Jews.

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/fifty-times-jeremy-corbyn-stood-with-jewish-people/

You imply is weak yet he has taken years of all out attack from the majority of media who dont want to see him as PM.

Of course even low incidents of any form of racism is too much in any party but the coverage of this has been hugely distorted to imply a significant issue.

I believe most people want to hear more focus and solutions to issues such as a crumbling NHS, Brexit resolution, reducing poverty, environmental issues.

Jesus, what has happened to the left with this cult of personality and a leader who can do no wrong ?

Why don't you talk about LABOUR, why do always talk about Corbyn?. In my lifetime, the only other members completely obsessed with their leader to the extent they were secondary to their party was Tories under Thatcher. You didn't get that under Blair, obsessed members saying Tony did this. Tony said that.

I'm not suggesting your DEAR LEADER is anti-semitic, he has simply failed to deal with a number of members who clearly are.

Members who have fused modern 9/11 conspiracy theories with Socialism. He simply can't deal with it because he is too stubborn to believe that anyone on the left could be racist too.

Upper middle class Corbyn hasn't changed his mind on anything since he was 15. He is pure ideology and completely ill-equipped to keep the extremes of his membership in check.

Peak Corbyn is over, ask your fellow "members" they are questioning his leadership in droves. If you want Corbyn like policies, Corbyn has to go.

His reluctance to deal with issue personally and delegate to non elected staff in denial has toxified the Labour party.

Nothing to do with the press, nothing to do with the Tories, nothing to do with Brexit and nothing to do with Socialism.

Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk

Sirnormangall · Jul 19, 2019

JC may well be doing his best on this issue but it obviously isn’t good enough. If he can’t provide leadership on an internal issue, how on earth can he lead the country?

clapham_gull · Jul 19, 2019

I believe most people want to hear more focus and solutions to issues such as a crumbling NHS, Brexit resolution, reducing poverty, environmental issues.

But that's just what Jezza says, interview after interview after interview after interview....

The environment has never been a strong issue for Labour which is why it so easily adopted by the Lib Dems and the Greens.

Unfortunately (for the environment), historically far left Labour has been in the pocket of Unions who represent workers in industries that damage the environment. The Tories have looked after the bosses who fund their party.

I take with a huge pinch of salt anyone on the left who suddenly cares about the environment. Join the Greens then......

Remarkably, the Tories are now more credible on the environment than Corbyn's Labour. Gove is better on the environment than Jezza - who would ever have believed that ?

Brexit Resolution ? Don't make me laugh. Corbyn comes from the Bennite side of the party whose voting record on the EU puts Rees Mogg to shame. He is a false profit and Labour are shitting themselves.

Their traditional voters in the north will leave them if they don't support Brexit. Their traditional voters in the cities will leave them if they do.

Corbyn's problem ? He was elected into power by a new younger vote who want to stay in Europe. Corbyn hates the EU and always has.

borat · Jul 19, 2019

My first post on this is about Labour and not about Corbyn. You changed the subject to Corbyn and critiqued him and I responded.

I support what he stands for - if someone replaces him and has the same policies and manifesto I would support them too. Refuting smears or defending Corbyn results in tired tropes such as the ones you made...Corbynite, Dear Leader, Commie Stalinist etc etc. Nothing of substance.

You say Members are tired - He has helped grow it to 500k plus and Labour are currently leading in all polls bar one. I wonder how well Labour might be doing with a more balanced press and more supportive MPs on the right of the Labour party

There are symetries with the US where Bernie is getting negative press - the Progressive Dems are fighting not just the Republicans but the establishment Democrats. AS hasnt been levelled against him (Bernie is Jewish) but against the other Progressive Dems Ilhan Omar, AOC and Rashida Talib. Trump himself is pushing this disingenuous AS line of attack.

clapham_gull · Jul 19, 2019

borat said:
My first post on this is about Labour and not about Corbyn. You changed the subject to Corbyn and critiqued him and I responded.

Nope, I responded to your defence of Corbyn.

borat said:
I support what he stands for - if someone replaces him and has the same policies and manifesto I would support them too.

Good, he is doing nothing to make it happen. Quite the opposite.

borat said:
Refuting smears or defending Corbyn results in tired tropes such as the ones you made...Corbynite, Dear Leader, Commie Stalinist etc etc. Nothing of substance.

Learned language. Try something better than using the "trope" word than has been used to attack anti-semitism. That's pure deflection. Anyone who thinks from my posts on here I'm "right wing" or "Blairite" hasn't read them.

My critique of Corbyn has nothing to do with my fear of Marxism or Communism. As much as you attempt to adopt the style of Boris Johnson, I've mentioned neither "Corbynite", "Commie" or "Stalinist". Your response is of little substance, not mine.

My problem with your support of Corbyn is the personality cult. Modern personality cults only really exist in North Korea (which dumped communism decades ago), modern day America and the Labour party.

Yep, the only supporters who sing their leaders name at rallies are Trump supporters, those in fear of getting shot or members of momentum. So think on.

borat said:
You say Members are tired - He has helped grow it to 500k plus and Labour are currently leading in all polls bar one. I wonder how well Labour might be doing with a more balanced press and more supportive MPs on the right of the Labour party.

The membership is declining and his personal ratings have dropped through the floor. They may lead in the polls but it is nowhere near getting an overall majority under our system. An oddity of the far left is they hate those nearer to them politically than the right, so don't expect a coalition with those in the centre to be easy.

borat said:
There are symetries with the US where Bernie is getting negative press

No there isn't. The US doesn't have a credible left wing. The working classes in this country are still inclined to vote for Labour, in America they are more likely to vote for Trump.

At least our left wing is credible but only as a broad church. Electing Corbyn as an extreme reaction to Blair was never going to work long term.

Due to oddities of our electoral system, if Corbyn did get elected he'd have to move to the centre ground to stay there for any time at all.

De-selecting "off message" centre ground MPs in urban areas is an open goal for the Lib Dems.

Find another messiah. Corbyn isn't it.

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