[Football] Ellen White Retires

Dave the hatosaurus · Aug 22, 2022

Nothing much more to achieve for the 33 year old in all honesty . Can bow out with the glow and memories of England's marvelous victory in the Euros !
Wonder if she will now consider management , punditry or maybe remembering her dancing celebrations Strictly might beckon ?
52 England goals for one of our great strikers .

PILTDOWN MAN · Aug 22, 2022

Dave the hatosaurus said:
Nothing much more to achieve for the 33 year old in all honesty . Can bow out with the glow and memories of England's marvelous victory in the Euros !
Wonder if she will now consider management , punditry or maybe remembering her dancing celebrations Strictly might beckon ?
52 England goals for one of our great strikers .

Great career but to keep mentioning it along with Shearer and Rooney is pathetic BBC/Sky rubbish. The women's game has come on leaps but why can't it celebrated for what it is and not attempt to see it as equal to the man's game, it isn't and will not be for a long time.

dazzer6666 · Aug 22, 2022

PILTDOWN MAN said:
Great career but to keep mentioning it along with Shearer and Rooney is pathetic BBC/Sky rubbish. The women's game has come on leaps but why can't it celebrated for what it is and not attempt to see it as equal to the man's game, it isn't and will not be for a long time.

Celebrating it for what it is means not comparing it with the men’s game :shrug:

ozzygull · Aug 22, 2022

She has been fantastic for England, hope she looks back with pride. Really pleased she got to lift the trophy at Wembley before retiring.

hart's shirt · Aug 22, 2022

A superb career and a well-earned retirement.

Sadly England didn't see the best of her in the Euros with just 2 goals against a woeful Norway.

The Rooney comparison is ridiculous - it's been said plenty of times on here over the last few months.

Clearly it never meant as much to her as it did to BBC Sport otherwise she'd have played against Austria and Luxembourg in 2 weeks time.

And yet according to the BBC, "she retires one short of equalling Wayne Rooney's record of 53 goals for England."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62636434

Comparisons and combining records across England teams are generally unhelpful.

As an example, David Clarke scored 126 goals in 144 games for England and GB Blind football team.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Clarke_(Paralympic_footballer)

Why isn't he being spoken of as the record England goalscorer?

It's not ableist any more than criticizing the media's Rooney v White comparison would be misogynistic.

It's just an illogical question to ask as the games are so different.

Ellen White was a great player for club and country in her own right. And I'm delighted that she finished with success.

ozzygull · Aug 22, 2022

hart's shirt said:
A superb career and a well-earned retirement.

Sadly England didn't see the best of her in the Euros with just 2 goals against a woeful Norway.

The Rooney comparison is ridiculous - it's been said plenty of times on here over the last few months.

Clearly it never meant as much to her as it did to BBC Sport otherwise she'd have played against Austria and Luxembourg in 2 weeks time.

And yet according to the BBC, "she retires one short of equalling Wayne Rooney's record of 53 goals for England."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62636434

Comparisons and combining records across England teams are generally unhelpful.

As an example, David Clarke scored 126 goals in 144 games for England and GB Blind football team.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Clarke_(Paralympic_footballer)

Why isn't he being spoken of as the record England goalscorer?

It's not ableist any more than criticizing the media's Rooney v White comparison would be misogynistic.

It's just an illogical question to ask as the games are so different.

Ellen White was a great player for club and country in her own right. And I'm delighted that she finished with success.

Things maybe changing but if you asked “some” men they would say “I am not interested, not watching as it slower, not as good” “the under 6 boys team would beat the lioness’s” etc etc… (yawn) so isn’t that comparing the women’s game to the mens game. Those type of comments are not helpful or relevant, neither is the comparison to her goal scoring record. Hopefully they will both stop soon.

Dave the hatosaurus · Aug 22, 2022

PILTDOWN MAN said:
Great career but to keep mentioning it along with Shearer and Rooney is pathetic BBC/Sky rubbish. The women's game has come on leaps but why can't it celebrated for what it is and not attempt to see it as equal to the man's game, it isn't and will not be for a long time.

Which is why i did not mention it in the original post , i was ( very naively it seems ) hoping for a celebratory thread about a player whose career , goals , and celebrations i much admired .

ozzygull · Aug 22, 2022

dazzer6666 said:
Celebrating it for what it is means not comparing it with the men’s game

Have a read of the HYS page on the BBC.

I think David Attenborough is about to do a new series about the return of the dinosaurs without the need for a special affects team.

I think the bbc put the comparison to the mens game just to troll them. They should put an article out once a day over winter it would save them a lot of money in heating bills. It could be seen as a public service.

hart's shirt · Aug 23, 2022

ozzygull said:
Things maybe changing but if you asked “some” men they would say “I am not interested, not watching as it slower, not as good” “the under 6 boys team would beat the lioness’s” etc etc… (yawn) so isn’t that comparing the women’s game to the mens game. Those type of comments are not helpful or relevant, neither is the comparison to her goal scoring record. Hopefully they will both stop soon.

OG, you asked the question (possibly rhetorically, but I'll answer it anyway), so yes, I think criticism like 'slower, not as good' is by nature comparative. As it's invariably referring to the men's game, albeit semi-pro, amateur or junior levels, I'd agree that's not helpful or relevant. So I'm with you here.

Part of the reaction is pure dinosaur and fear of change, but some could be attributed to a perceived promoted media narrative of equivalence of men's and women's games. However right or wrong that perception may be, it fosters a spirit of comparison with the inevitable, predictable responses and comments.

So the media's got a responsibility to help build the women's game with fair, balanced articles to engage opinions, not inflame them.

Clickbait comments may get the page views up, but they don't help with credibility.

dazzer6666 · Aug 23, 2022

Is the comparison with Rooney useful purely to put her career into context for those that have no idea what she’s done rather than as a ‘direct’ comparison ? Could do the same with, say, Olympic sprinters in terms of medals won without comparing times :shrug:

rippleman · Aug 23, 2022

PILTDOWN MAN said:
Great career but to keep mentioning it along with Shearer and Rooney is pathetic BBC/Sky rubbish. The women's game has come on leaps but why can't it celebrated for what it is and not attempt to see it as equal to the man's game, it isn't and will not be for a long time.

Here we go again! You are never going to get it so I'm not going to bother.

I am going to celebrate the achievements of our greatest ever womens international goalscorer and wish her the very best in whatever she now choses to do.

rippleman · Aug 23, 2022

Dave the hatosaurus said:
Which is why i did not mention it in the original post , i was ( very naively it seems ) hoping for a celebratory thread about a player whose career , goals , and celebrations i much admired .

Not with him on the case you won't!

PILTDOWN MAN · Aug 23, 2022

rippleman said:
Not with him on the case you won't!

On what case?

Think you have the wrong poster here. My point was simple, she's had a great career but to compare it to men's football is chalk and cheese. Celebrate her achievements for what it is within the environment it was done. Women's football is evolving, encourage it, embrace it. Not one report I've seen has her achievements been compared to any other women within the game. There's been very little spoken about her in comparison with other women internationals, that's sloppy journalism IMO.

Unlike many I watch a lot of women's football, it's moving in a good direction and I enjoy. I believe it has to supported by the likes of Brighton to grow it's audience but you can't force people to watch it. I love cricket but refuse to watch the 100.

It feels like you want to take some moral high ground. Be offended I don't give a shit.

Beanstalk · Aug 23, 2022

Who cares about the comparison, it is factually correct that she scored one less goal for a senior England team than Wayne Rooney. It literally makes no difference to the world whether they make that comparison or whether they differentiate it. It's throwaway whether you think it should be made or not.

Great career, the sort of fairytale path you imagine as a kid, playing for loads of clubs and winning, then finishing with a trophy for your country at Wembley.

mejonaNO12 aka riskit · Aug 23, 2022

PILTDOWN MAN said:
Great career but to keep mentioning it along with Shearer and Rooney is pathetic BBC/Sky rubbish. The women's game has come on leaps but why can't it celebrated for what it is and not attempt to see it as equal to the man's game, it isn't and will not be for a long time.

You do realise you're moaning about them being compared on a thread where the OP DIDN'T compare them. You were literally the first reply.

It's like someone starting a thread on the economy, not mentioning Brexit and then me popping up with a "WHY DOES EVERYONE KEEP MENTIONING BREXIT AND THE ECONOMY!?"

PILTDOWN MAN · Aug 23, 2022

mejonaNO12 aka riskit said:
You do realise you're moaning about them being compared on a thread where the OP DIDN'T compare them. You were literally the first reply.

It's like someone starting a thread on the economy, not mentioning Brexit and then me popping up with a "WHY DOES EVERYONE KEEP MENTIONING BREXIT AND THE ECONOMY!?"

I was the time watching Sky Sports News so commented as I posted on their reporting of it.

I am allowed to comment on an event. FFS get a grip

PILTDOWN MAN · Aug 23, 2022

Beanstalk said:
Who cares about the comparison, it is factually correct that she scored one less goal for a senior England team than Wayne Rooney. It literally makes no difference to the world whether they make that comparison or whether they differentiate it. It's throwaway whether you think it should be made or not.

Great career, the sort of fairytale path you imagine as a kid, playing for loads of clubs and winning, then finishing with a trophy for your country at Wembley.

The point I was making it was lazy, they should have focused on her career. Running a good article about her would be far more informative instead keep flashing a picture of her Shearer and Rooney has no relevance to her career, focus on her overall career.

Tom Bombadil · Aug 23, 2022

Oh great one of the fossils has derailed the thread. Can't we just celebrate the career of a remarkable footballer?

Hamilton · Aug 23, 2022

And another post about the women's game descends into farce as a poster objects to women being compared to men.

The 'greatest English goal scorer' stat used to be used as a way of illustrating the inherent sexism in society, i.e. when we talk about football, we automatically think about the men's game rather than the women's game. It's everywhere though. Greatest sprinter? Most people will say Usain Bolt. I mean, just put 'greatest sprinter of all time' into Google and his name will come up, not Shelly-Anne Fraser-Pryce. Yep, Google suffers gender bias too.

The stat will continue to be used because a) it's factually correct and b) we need something to shake us men out of ourselves.

Well done Ellen. Brilliant career. And you capped it with international silverware. ****ing awesome.

hart's shirt · Aug 23, 2022

PILTDOWN MAN said:
Not one report I've seen has her achievements been compared to any other women within the game. There's been very little spoken about her in comparison with other women internationals, that's sloppy journalism IMO.

You've made a very insightful point there.

Sloppy journalism and lazy too with so much info freely available in the public domain.

It would've been more far more useful to have compared White with someone like the phenomenon of Canada's Christine Sinclair.

Having made her international debut in 2000, she's currently on 315 caps and has scored 190 goals for the Olympic champions.

An astonishing level of longevity even within women's football where international cap collection is generally more plentiful.

If the 39 year old plays in both fixtures against AUS in a fortnight, she'll go 2nd in the list of all time women's international caps.

For England, Fara Williams won 172 caps, but Jill Scott's currently on 161 and is likely to go past her in the next 12 months.

But all are still dwarfed by the USA's Kristine Lilly who sits alone on an incredible 354 caps over a 23 year international career.

Ellen White's 52 goals in 113 games (0.46) was impressive, but not as high as Sinclair's current strike rate of 0.60 goals/game.

So if the media must make comparisons between players, they should at least try and make them valid on the same playing field.

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[Football] Ellen White Retires

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