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[Misc] We'll never stop the supply of drugs, so how do we reduce the demand?



herecomesaregular

herecomesaregular

We're in the pipe, 5 by 5
Oct 27, 2008
4,244
Still in Brighton
- A war on (the supply) of drugs is simply unwinnable, as the decades have shown
- Prohibition isn't working either
- I lean towards legalisation but this isn't really an answer either?
- Rehab for addicts seems successful only for a minority (mental health and self medication through drugs combine and are hard to then separate for treatment)
- Those "lighter users" demanding drugs for hedonism don't seem to have any qualms about it not being a "fairtrade" industry (linked with violence and abuse of all kinds and organised crime).

Surely the only way forward is to focus on reducing demand but is this simply mission impossible? I'm glad I only dabbled a bit as a youngster, if any class As got a grip of me I recognise now I doubt I'd have the mental resilience to shake them off (but many others don't seem to recognise this in themselves and plough on).

As a Brighton resident for 30 years it's getting more depressing walking around the streets in the morning, so many wrecks around.
 




N

Neville's Breakfast

Well-known member
May 1, 2016
13,423
Oxton, Birkenhead
Probably not possible as it is too widely accepted in some circles. All we can do is pick up the pieces. There’s a decent new documentary on BBC iplayer News called Addiction (about drink and drugs) which shows what is happening in Birkenhead which was the starting place for the current drug epidemic.
 
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Silverhatch

Silverhatch

Well-known member
Feb 23, 2009
4,328
Preston Park
herecomesaregular said:
- A war on (the supply) of drugs is simply unwinnable, as the decades have shown
- Prohibition isn't working either
- I lean towards legalisation but this isn't really an answer either?
- Rehab for addicts seems successful only for a minority (mental health and self medication through drugs combine and are hard to then separate for treatment)
- Those "lighter users" demanding drugs for hedonism don't seem to have any qualms about it not being a "fairtrade" industry (linked with violence and abuse of all kinds and organised crime).

Surely the only way forward is to focus on reducing demand but is this simply mission impossible? I'm glad I only dabbled a bit as a youngster, if any class As got a grip of me I recognise now I doubt I'd have the mental resilience to shake them off (but many others don't seem to recognise this in themselves and plough on).

As a Brighton resident for 30 years it's getting more depressing walking around the streets in the morning, so many wrecks around.
Click to expand...

There were plenty of wrecks in the 1890s: opium, absinthe, booze!
 


herecomesaregular

herecomesaregular

We're in the pipe, 5 by 5
Oct 27, 2008
4,244
Still in Brighton
Silverhatch said:
There were plenty of wrecks in the 1890s: opium, absinthe, booze!
Click to expand...

If you live near Preston Park have you seen the pitiful wreck of a man who begs outside the Sainsburys Local? edit - I'm not demonising him but he's in a hell of a state and I won't give money to him but have tried to talk to him with little success.
 


macbeth

macbeth

Dismembered
Jan 3, 2018
3,782
six feet beneath the moon...
Well taking control of supply out of the hands of criminal gangs seems like a good place to start, which happens when we stop pursuing prohibition policies. After that? Probably requires significant funding for addiction/treatment services, and also perhaps getting consumption rooms into discreet places in town centres. But that's just (well, of course not just) reducing the lives lost to overdose and addiction. To stop people ending up addicted in the first place is such a multifaceted problem, but a good proportion of it would boil down to the fact that ultimately there's a sizeable section of society who are born and grow up with very little prospects and very poor living standards and sometimes don't come form the best home. That's not describing everyone, as I said it's multifaceted, nor is it saying anyone who fits that category is destined to be addicted to drugs, there are so many different factors at play in people's lives, but I'd say that applies to a solid percentage of the people currently struggling most with these issues. I'm not qualified here at all, but I'd be amazed if there wasn't a strong correlation between places with a high rate of mental health incidences and places with a high rate of drug use.
 




Swansman

Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
22,320
Sweden
The best way is to create a society with a lot of options and opportunities, unfortunately no one really wants that and the ship has probably sailed forever.
 


rogersix

rogersix

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2014
7,904
macbeth said:
Well taking control of supply out of the hands of criminal gangs seems like a good place to start, which happens when we stop pursuing prohibition policies. After that? Probably requires significant funding for addiction/treatment services, and also perhaps getting consumption rooms into discreet places in town centres. But that's just (well, of course not just) reducing the lives lost to overdose and addiction. To stop people ending up addicted in the first place is such a multifaceted problem, but a good proportion of it would boil down to the fact that ultimately there's a sizeable section of society who are born and grow up with very little prospects and very poor living standards and sometimes don't come form the best home. That's not describing everyone, as I said it's multifaceted, nor is it saying anyone who fits that category is destined to be addicted to drugs, there are so many different factors at play in people's lives, but I'd say that applies to a solid percentage of the people currently struggling most with these issues. I'm not qualified here at all, but I'd be amazed if there wasn't a strong correlation between places with a high rate of mental health incidences and places with a high rate of drug use.
Click to expand...

affluent people take a lot of drugs, it's just that there are different consequences for them
 






drew

drew

Drew
Oct 3, 2006
23,073
Burgess Hill
It might help if people stop thinking of it as a war where one side wins!

Bit like speeding. Nobody is expecting the Police to eliminate speeding but the rules are there for good reason.

As for what can be done, maybe employers should take the step of random drug swabs. After all, they wouldn't put up with someone turning up for work drunk!
 


C

Cheeky Monkey

Well-known member
Jul 17, 2003
23,059
rogersix said:
affluent people take a lot of drugs, it's just that there are different consequences for them
Click to expand...

A few bods I know in the Brighton chattering classes have their own MDMA purity testing machines, they don’t risk taking any old shit.

A teacher at a Brighton secondary school collapsed while taking a lesson after an all night cocaine binge a few years back, headed home saying it was asthma related.
 


herecomesaregular

herecomesaregular

We're in the pipe, 5 by 5
Oct 27, 2008
4,244
Still in Brighton
drew said:
It might help if people stop thinking of it as a war where one side wins!

Bit like speeding. Nobody is expecting the Police to eliminate speeding but the rules are there for good reason.

As for what can be done, maybe employers should take the step of random drug swabs. After all, they wouldn't put up with someone turning up for work drunk!
Click to expand...

I've had staff turn up very much seemingly high. Both times after discussion they decided to go home feeling unwell before I started something a bit more formal.
 




rogersix

rogersix

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2014
7,904
Cheeky Monkey said:
A few bods I know in the Brighton chattering classes have their own MDMA purity testing machines, they don’t risk taking any old shit.

A teacher at a Brighton secondary school collapsed while taking a lesson after an all night cocaine binge a few years back, headed home saying it was asthma related.
Click to expand...

:D and the figures don't get recorded :dunky:
 


happypig

happypig

Staring at the rude boys
May 23, 2009
7,974
Eastbourne
A good start would be to treat drug addiction as a health problem, rather than a criminal one.
No-one wakes up and says "Right then, I think I'll become a heroin addict", it's usually a spiral down from other drugs.
We (society) need to have a grown up discussion around the legalisation of all drugs; it's no good people just saying "drugs should be illegal" and thinking that's the end of the problem or using it to score political points.
 


herecomesaregular

herecomesaregular

We're in the pipe, 5 by 5
Oct 27, 2008
4,244
Still in Brighton
drew said:
It might help if people stop thinking of it as a war where one side wins!

Bit like speeding. Nobody is expecting the Police to eliminate speeding but the rules are there for good reason.

As for what can be done, maybe employers should take the step of random drug swabs. After all, they wouldn't put up with someone turning up for work drunk!
Click to expand...

Oh i agree. I've worded it badly. Reduce dramatically / minimise then. The current trajectory seems worrying, to me at least.
 






Guinness Boy

Guinness Boy

Tofu eating wokerati
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patron
Jul 23, 2003
34,318
Up and Coming Sunny Portslade
drew said:
It might help if people stop thinking of it as a war where one side wins!

Bit like speeding. Nobody is expecting the Police to eliminate speeding but the rules are there for good reason.

As for what can be done, maybe employers should take the step of random drug swabs. After all, they wouldn't put up with someone turning up for work drunk!
Click to expand...

Nonsense.

It totally depends on what industry you're in. The City has a long and proud tradition of sealing deals over large amounts of alcohol and there were MGAs, London Market bods and capital providers who looked on large lunchtime consumption as purely positive. Back in the day you'd seal an underwriting deal over several pints in a City boozer and coming in the next morning was still expected. It's changed a bit but the culture is still there. WeWork offers free craft beer taps in its offices after 3pm. On the other hand, drugs are very much frowned upon.

On the other hand for musicians, DJs, event organisers and many others in the entertainment industry NOT taking drugs makes you an outlier. Eventually, of course, many choose to or have to, sober up, but don't think there isn't gear hanging around the periphery.

Footballers can get forgiven if they're good enough. Gazza used to train pissed and Maradona was off his nut all the time. But, in general, they are already tested and not willing to take the risk.
 




macbeth

macbeth

Dismembered
Jan 3, 2018
3,782
six feet beneath the moon...
rogersix said:
affluent people take a lot of drugs, it's just that there are different consequences for them
Click to expand...

yep, they do, there's also the factor that the drugs more popular amongst the upper classes tend to be drugs that allow for more functional addiction (eg. cocaine), i.e it is easier to maintain a job and life whilst being addicted (though no walk in the park, of course). but we do ultimately have a system that is set up to punish those less well off, hence the penalty for most drug possession offences being fines
 




Swansman

Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
22,320
Sweden
herecomesaregular said:
I don't think we should give up though? Without hope then we'll all just sleepwalk into taking drugs?
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We already did, the sound your mobile makes when you get a notification works in the same ways as a lot of light drugs. People love drugs. If there's no natural ones (sex, dance and so on) they want more of the artificial (chemicals and tech).

The way out of abuse of artificial drugs is to replace as much of human culture as possible with human nature. But this is too late. It is impractical, immoral and in our over-organised world simply impossible to make that turn at this point. When you can dance naked on a square without feeling any shame or guilt and without worrying about the law and your status and people filming you and whatever, then you can live a life without drugs. But we haven't moved in that direction in a long time. We're just accumulating things that we should be ashamed etc about. The relief from these things stopping us from being natural humans is to take drugs and lose a little of all that care and control.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
50,435
Faversham
Swansman said:
The best way is to create a society with a lot of options and opportunities, unfortunately no one really wants that and the ship has probably sailed forever.
Click to expand...
Sometimes, for a young man, you sound needlessly pessimistic.

A few points:

1. People like to alter their state. Not everyone, but plenty. Drink, tobacco, cannabis . . . . gambling.....
2. We all do things we know we shouldn't, whether it's injecting a drug or simply reading NSC when we should be working. Our boundaries vary hugely though.
3. We all think we probably know best, and sometimes break the law when it suits us (from speeding in my case, ahem, to wherever else your threshold for probity ends for the more risk-taker types).
4. We can all handle some things but not others.
5. Humans are extremely poor risk assessors and rate risk in relation to perceived benefit:cost ratio. In other words if we decide we want to do something we downgrade the risk.
6. People may indulge more in 'cheer me up' activities, legal and illegal, when we feel the need.
7. And then there is mental illness, which messes with all the above.

So.....the real drugs problem is the one that ruins lives. It doesn't ruin all lives but it ruins some. But some will be ruined come what may.

And so....everyone's idea of what to do will vary. Mine? I would like to see harsher police intervention for public nuisance. For example, if I had chaotic drug dealing neighbours I would expect an end to it. There is no reason that people should be affected by other people's drug using any more than I should have to put up with some pissed up bloke shouting outside my house.

At the other end of the spectrum, what about a bit of care? I don't think we should have anyone living on the street. Weren't rough sleepers taken into shelter during early Covid? They are certainly back on the street now. We should put and end to it. It would cost 0.001% of the price of the jiggery pokery and spaffing of cash going on in the wider world of 'government spending'. Support and help.

And in between, education and licensed supply to get the criminality out of it. Legalization of cannabis is something I have always opposed (depite being a daily user when at uni) simply because it can trigger psychosis in some, but on reflection, it can probably be managed in a legal framework.
 


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