[News] American mass shootings

Tyrone Biggums said:

You seem to be making plenty of excuses there.

My Grandparents went through a Depression and a World War.

There was no work, then there were millions upon millions dying in an horrific war. They didn't grow up in some paradise. That life was brutal.

And yet listening to them I learned many valuable lessons. The advice they gave was sound and sensible.

Still works well today.

If we had grown up in a society where the value of your work is always decreasing you ask?

Hey champ, many of us grew up in a society where our job skills and experience saw us made redundant by technology. And that's relevant for people in their late 40's and 50s.

No system is perfect, who is even saying that? No doubt if you suggested a system people could pick holes through that too.

Any person including you and I is only as good as we make ourselves. Relying on any shit arse Politician to make your life better is a waste of time.

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Ok this was the expected answer (we grew up in a box on the street and got killed every night etc and you should feel pity and respect for us because life was tough but we were very good unlike the sloths today), so what caused - according to you - an entire generation of youngsters to have "no work ethic"?

Swansman said:

Ok this was the expected answer (we grew up in a box on the street and got killed every night etc and you should feel pity and respect for us because life was tough but we were very good unlike the sloths today), so what caused - according to you - an entire generation of youngsters to have "no work ethic"?

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People have been complaining about younger generations' lack of work ethic since Noah was a boy it is no truer now than it was when my grandad and other miserable ******** who had forgotten what it was like to be young said it to me.

This narrative is also damaging. What if people actually started to believe it and stopped trying?

Swansman said:

If an entire generation behaves in a certain way it is obviously a systematic failure. You're saying there is nothing wrong with the system, the young people are at fault - but who creates the beliefs and the ideas of the youth?

Kids realise early that there are three options:
1. You become some kind of greedy bloodsucking w*nker inventing some shitty tech company or taking the risk on some crypto currency or whatever, become filthy rich and increase your wealth the Amazon way - not paying your workers enough to make a living, or buy a lot of property and raise rents to make more money while those you're abusing will struggle to get by.

2. You "work hard" and "make sacrifices" (also known as sacrificing your life to create profits to the people in the first category) to barely be able to make a living and perhaps, if you're really frugal, you'll be able to buy a house when you've worked hard for 30 years. No time for family, no time for play, just endless work to make ends meet so you can afford a house (partially through the help of a loan that you will then spend the rest of your life working equally hard to pay off).

3. You look at the options above and think "you know what, I can't become a vampire and I don't want to be a modern day slave" and give up.

Work ethic for the older generation is to knuckle down and work hard because the advantages were imaginable and within reach, something that is increasingly difficult when costs rise more than wages, because those who are rich wants to make even more profits than they did in the past. How is this not a systematic flaw?

Older generations have always moaned about the lazy youth. Well, maybe it is because you're failing to understand how the world change. You're proud and self-victimizing at the same time and simply can not understand how the game has changed because it would disturb the narrative that you're much better and had it a lot worse schelotto than the lazy youths of today.

But the game did change. If you had grown up in a society where the value of your work is always decreasing and any change it could make to your life is always 30 years away, and society demands you to be connected to a world where smug celebrities and Elon Musks are able to psychosodomise you 24/7 about how they made money from doing **** all, you'd understand that society and the systems it is built on is seriously flawed. But you don't want that. You want to think that the system is perfect and that the real difference is that you are better than the struggling youngsters.

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Even though I am an old git who ought to be irritably contemplating a fictitious and halcyon past where every rosy cheeked child was polite and.....

I agree with you. Great insight.

I am not sure how well older folk recognise how much everything has changed during their lives, especially the good changes. Many see things they simply never saw when young and shake their heads sadly. I'll list a few things that have changed since I was 20:

1. Women. With tattoos.
2. Women, not treated 24/7 in the workplace as 'fluff' at best....
3. Black people not always treated with fear and/or hostility
4. Sexual orientation. No longer only one allowed - or go to prison.
5. Social mobility. It may well still be hard to 'get on' but it is no longer effectively taboo if you're working class.
6. Respect. People are no longer automatically ***** to anyone outside their tribe,
7. Niceness. The English no longer always look up with fear at their betters, and down their nose at their inferiors as a matter of reflex.
8. Chldren. No longer slapped by most parents even in public, and made to be seen and not heard.
9. Information. It is all available now - you just have to learn how to sift it.
10. Newspapers. Irrelevant now (see the item above).
11. General health and cleanliness. Long time since I was assailed by BO as was the norm, always, everywhere, in the 1970s.

Of course there are exceptions, scrotes and examples of extreme behaviour and ghastliness we imagine did not exist back in the day. But they did, though. It simply wasn't reported in graphic detail in the media.

One thing that has got worse, I suspect, is the level of organized conspiracy by the power elite. It used to be easy to be an open lazy manipulator if you had money and/or the appearance of being from the ownership class, and being racist/sexists/classist when in that company was required and part of being in that club. Recall the former Newcastle owners mocking their thicky working class fanbase 15 or so years ago, prior to the takeover but one. Not so easy to be like that now and get away with it, as Johnson will hopefully soon discover. This change in what the power elite can get away with is only just staring properly, but it is an unavoidable reaction to the degree of scrutiny and improvements in standards across the board, and in extremis in police integrity (yes, it has improved) that shines a light when none shone in the past. So the conspiracy will need to be better organized if the power elite are to cling on to their power. The optimist in me sees a time when the level of scritiny becomes so exacting that standards and behaviours by our rulers will simply have to improve.

The force of evil for me is the dark media, the cess pit echo chambers that attract the weak and nasty. That said, the weak and nasty always seem to let themselves down. In the end you have to carry people with you, have empathy and be decent or you will be found out and duly dispached before you can 'change' society to your liking. The doctrine of the weak and nasty and its influence may never die out completely, but it will be hard for it to gain traction outside the echo chamber. Yes, PPF, I'm talking about you.

I find this more exciting than I find it frightening. There again, I put in the 20 year shift needed to pay off the house, and am far too peculiar to have allowed myself to become a Sunshine Desserts era Reggie Perrin. So I doubt that I'm typical, and suspect that fear and bafflement and clinging on to the past are knee-jerk reactions for many my age (64).

Harry Wilson's tackle said:

Even though I am an old git who ought to be irritably contemplating a fictitious and halcyon past where every rosy cheeked child was polite and.....

I agree with you. Great insight.

I am not sure how well older folk recognise how much everything has changed during their lives, especially the good changes. Many see things they simply never saw when young and shake their heads sadly. I'll list a few things that have changed since I was 20:

1. Women. With tattoos.
2. Women, not treated 24/7 in the workplace as 'fluff' at best....
3. Black people not always treated with fear and/or hostility
4. Sexual orientation. No longer only one allowed - or go to prison.
5. Social mobility. It may well still be hard to 'get on' but it is no longer effectively taboo if you're working class.
6. Respect. People are no longer automatically ***** to anyone outside their tribe,
7. Niceness. The English no longer always look up with fear at their betters, and down their nose at their inferiors as a matter of reflex.
8. Chldren. No longer slapped by most parents even in public, and made to be seen and not heard.
9. Information. It is all available now - you just have to learn how to sift it.
10. Newspapers. Irrelevant now (see the item above).
11. General health and cleanliness. Long time since I was assailed by BO as was the norm, always, everywhere, in the 1970s.

Of course there are exceptions, scrotes and examples of extreme behaviour and ghastliness we imagine did not exist back in the day. But they did, though. It simply wasn't reported in graphic detail in the media.

One thing that has got worse, I suspect, is the level of organized conspiracy by the power elite. It used to be easy to be an open lazy manipulator if you had money and/or the appearance of being from the ownership class, and being racist/sexists/classist when in that company was required and part of being in that club. Recall the former Newcastle owners mocking their thicky working class fanbase 15 or so years ago, prior to the takeover but one. Not so easy to be like that now and get away with it, as Johnson will hopefully soon discover. This change in what the power elite can get away with is only just staring properly, but it is an unavoidable reaction to the degree of scrutiny and improvements in standards across the board, and in extremis in police integrity (yes, it has improved) that shines a light when none shone in the past. So the conspiracy will need to be better organized if the power elite are to cling on to their power. The optimist in me sees a time when the level of scritiny becomes so exacting that standards and behaviours by our rulers will simply have to improve.

The force of evil for me is the dark media, the cess pit echo chambers that attract the weak and nasty. That said, the weak and nasty always seem to let themselves down. In the end you have to carry people with you, have empathy and be decent or you will be found out and duly dispached before you can 'change' society to your liking. The doctrine of the weak and nasty and its influence may never die out completely, but it will be hard for it to gain traction outside the echo chamber. Yes, PPF, I'm talking about you.

I find this more exciting than I find it frightening. There again, I put in the 20 year shift needed to pay off the house, and am far too peculiar to have allowed myself to become a Sunshine Desserts era Reggie Perrin. So I doubt that I'm typical, and suspect that fear and bafflement and clinging on to the past are knee-jerk reactions for many my age (64).

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The dark media may attract "the weak and nasty" but what makes people "weak and nasty"? The "non-dark" media - anything from movies to journalism to social media" - 24/7 365 days a year screaming the message: you need this and this and this to be happy, you need this and this and this to be accepted, you need this and this and this to be successful, and if you're not beautiful, rich and happy enough all the time, you're shit. And by the way, even if you get all this shit, you're doomed because the plague/environment/nukes are going to wipe out the planet tomorrow.

According to Google Ngram, which allows you to compare how common words and phrases have been throughout history, the phrase "what you need" overtook "what you have" in prevalence in the 1980s. Pretty much sums up the increase in pressure, which people collapse under.

The National Rifle Association will be holding their annual seminar/conference/trade show in the next week. Apparently both Biden and Trump are due to address the delegates.

Don’t hold your breath, nothing will change, and even if it does there are more guns than people in the USA. They are royally f.x.x.k.e.d for at least another hundred years.

I would not give that country the steam off my piss, I would never spend money in a country that is just sooooo stupid.

Swansman said:

Ok this was the expected answer (we grew up in a box on the street and got killed every night etc and you should feel pity and respect for us because life was tough but we were very good unlike the sloths today), so what caused - according to you - an entire generation of youngsters to have "no work ethic"?

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As Aldous Huxley predicted in a Brave New World, the world would become slaves to a drug and it would dictate their thoughts and feelings.

I believe he was right. That drug in 2022 is technology. Why go outside on a beautiful day and read a book when you can have your head buried in a device all day and have all the worlds doom and gloomers like yourself filling their head with negativity.

Simster said:

Reading about the latest NBA play off, I came across this video on the BBC.

Amazingly emotional outburst from an NBA coach. Can you imagine a football manager expressing similar outrage at some of the injustices we see here? Well I thought it was amazing anyway, and not before time.

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Currently being discussed on TS…they played the audio from that ..quite something

Bold Seagull said:

Is that how many of our older generation vote in terms of benefitting the young and thinking about their futures?

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I consider my view across a range of issues and of course that includes the young. I would imagine most people do. Just because you disagree with somebody that does not give you (or them) some sort of moral high ground.

Swansman said:

In what sense is it "propagated on the internet for political reasons"? There is plenty of evidence that a lot of young people today feel those things about society.

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Just what I wrote really. There have always been people disaffected by society. Do something about it. Become a mentor or something, be a positive role model instead of moaning. Or do nothing. At least try to understand the actual issues faced by the types of kids involved in these incidents rather than try to frame it in whatever political issue you favour the most.

Tyrone Biggums said:

As Aldous Huxley predicted in a Brave New World, the world would become slaves to a drug and it would dictate their thoughts and feelings.

I believe he was right. That drug in 2022 is technology. Why go outside on a beautiful day and read a book when you can have your head buried in a device all day and have all the worlds doom and gloomers like yourself filling their head with negativity.

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Of course he was right, because he understood how the world develops and for what reasons. However, once again I'm not going to blame the youth - they did not invent it, they did not sell the idea of it to the people, they did not decide that voices of authority would ignore or marginalise the problems of it. The powers that be thought a thing like the internet would be a very practical tool to subdue discontent and put it in a sphere were any protest can be ignored unlike in the physical world. Again, this is why I don't blame the young ones who were pretty much born into this reality, I blame the systems and their operators.

Neville's Breakfast said:

Just what I wrote really. There have always been people disaffected by society. Do something about it. Become a mentor or something, be a positive role model instead of moaning. Or do nothing. At least try to understand the actual issues faced by the types of kids involved in these incidents rather than try to frame it in whatever political issue you favour the most.

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The "actual issues face by the type of kids involved in these incidents" are political issues because everything is politics. When you decide that taking your weird kiddo to the child psychologist should cost parents a fortune, the issue is political because the decision is political. When you shape the schools and decide that everyone needs a computer/tablet, allowing them to gather inspiration from the neo-Charles Mansons of the world, it is a political decision and a political issue. When the political decision or lack of decision means everyone can carry a gun, it is a political issue. There is absolutely no way of avoiding politics when it comes to this subject.

Swansman said:

Like in all neo-liberal countries, market regulation is considered the most evil thing on the planet.

That said, the prevalence of guns is just a small part of the issue. Its not difficult getting a gun in most countries. I could take the bus to Malmo right now and buy one, with ammo, for less than £200. Not sure if its the case in the UK but you could do the same thing in Netherlands, France etc. If you want to shoot people in a school, you can.

The main difference between the US and pretty much anywhere else is that people actually do these things over there. The issues are far more deeply rooted than just gun control.

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Just to guide you on the UK's gun laws, so you don't 'assume' we are the same as elsewhere. The UK has some of the most stringent gun laws in the world (except those who may ban private ownership outright). We have learnt, at our cost. Firstly with Hungerford and Dunblane, the reaction was quite rightly to ban semi autos and handguns (other for competition shooting, which carry strict laws on where these can be stored and used). The more recent events in Durham, Cumbria and the most recent in Plymouth have seen even tighter control and monitoring, particularly in terms of mental health following the Plymouth shootings.

To get a shotgun licence, you need a medical certificate from your Doc, and your records are tagged. Interviews are conducted with the Police, who also talk to referrees, and they can now (with your permission) monitor your social media output. If you have any criminal conviction, it's pretty much a no no, unless you've displayed good character for many years. Any issues with Alcohol/domestic violence, and guns will be confiscated immediately. Firearms (rifle) licenses are even harder to come by, requiring landowner permission evidence and further medical evidence. Strict control on storage and ammount of ammo are in place.

Mistakes have been made by licensing forces (again Plymouth), but the good thing is there seems to be significant progress in learning from these.

Most gun crime in the UK is from illegally held guns.

As for the US, no-one needs an AR15 or similar to go hunting. Sadly the mentality over there is ridiculous. They have very strict laws on actual hunting (when, where, quotas etc) and these are very much enforced, its just the domestic possession thats out of touch!

Swansman said:

The "actual issues face by the type of kids involved in these incidents" are political issues because everything is politics. When you decide that taking your weird kiddo to the child psychologist should cost parents a fortune, the issue is political because the decision is political. When you shape the schools and decide that everyone needs a computer/tablet, allowing them to gather inspiration from the neo-Charles Mansons of the world, it is a political decision and a political issue. When the political decision or lack of decision means everyone can carry a gun, it is a political issue. There is absolutely no way of avoiding politics when it comes to this subject.

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You have very strong views and yet appear to know very little about these issues.
1) Calling these kids ‘weird’ really doesn’t help and illustrates your lack of knowledge on this subject. Actually I am offended on their behalf and happy to say so because I have worked with kids that you have dismissed in this way.
2) Over here at least it doesn’t costs parents (of the profiles we are talking about) anything for a referral to a child psychologist. It is very expensive but the cost is borne by local authorities.
3) I have never been in a school where every student has a computer or tablet. It is still rare and is associated with need. There are selected lessons in ICT rooms where the students work on eg Google classroom. They do not randomly surf the internet.
4) Gun control is a political issue and I agree with comments you have made along the lines of gun laws not being the most important factor. As you say, it is not difficult to buy a gun. Probably quite easy in my neighborhood. However less people do so over here compared to the US so we have a less trigger happy society. That will not stop the determined though.

As usual you have started with your conspiracy theory conclusions and are pontificating about something in which you have very little actual experience other than wormholes on the internet. Sorry.

Swansman said:

Of course he was right, because he understood how the world develops and for what reasons. However, once again I'm not going to blame the youth - they did not invent it, they did not sell the idea of it to the people, they did not decide that voices of authority would ignore or marginalise the problems of it. The powers that be thought a thing like the internet would be a very practical tool to subdue discontent and put it in a sphere were any protest can be ignored unlike in the physical world. Again, this is why I don't blame the young ones who were pretty much born into this reality, I blame the systems and their operators.

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Nobody is blaming children.

But if you're in your 20s and still moaning about how woe is me then that's now on you. You're an adult.

There is some irony in you blaming the systems and wanting obviously to break free from those chains, yet you're also shitting on the crypto world which was founded on a principle of decoupling from the traditional players who control everything.

You should be behind the likes of Ethereum and Cardano for what they are trying to achieve.

Dr Q said:

Sadly the mentality over there is ridiculous. They have very strict laws on actual hunting (when, where, quotas etc) and these are very much enforced, its just the domestic possession thats out of touch!

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To say "the mentality over there is ridiculous" is like saying "English football fans are moronic thugs".

The fact is that 90% of Americans want FAR tighter gun laws, but unfortunately their opinions don't seem to count for anything.

Neville's Breakfast said:

You have very strong views and yet appear to know very little about these issues.
1) Calling these kids ‘weird’ really doesn’t help and illustrates your lack of knowledge on this subject. Actually I am offended on their behalf and happy to say so because I have worked with kids that you have dismissed in this way.
2) Over here at least it doesn’t costs parents (of the profiles we are talking about) anything for a referral to a child psychologist. It is very expensive but the cost is borne by local authorities.
3) I have never been in a school where every student has a computer or tablet. It is still rare and is associated with need. There are selected lessons in ICT rooms where the students work on eg Google classroom. They do not randomly surf the internet.
4) Gun control is a political issue

As usual you have started with your conspiracy theory conclusions and are pontificating about something in which you have very little actual experience other than wormholes on the internet. Sorry.

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1. Yeah I believe that this 18 year old kiddo who just went to a school to kill 20 other kiddos is a bit of a weird bloke. Feel free to be offended on his behalf, I won't change my mind.

2. And maybe thanks to the (political) decision that it should be free/cheap helps prevent these school shootings from happening meaning the (political) decision to have it cost a fortune is indeed one of the political issues causing this to frequently happen in the US.

3. I'll admit I don't know how this is in the US but I wouldn't rule out that it is borderline mandatory for everyone to have computer or similar device.

4. Yes

Tyrone Biggums said:

Nobody is blaming children.

But if you're in your 20s and still moaning about how woe is me then that's now on you. You're an adult.

There is some irony in you blaming the systems and wanting obviously to break free from those chains, yet you're also shitting on the crypto world which was founded on a principle of decoupling from the traditional players who control everything.

You should be behind the likes of Ethereum and Cardano for what they are trying to achieve.

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The thing is that your childhood affects your life moving onwards so if you get heavily brainwashed into all sorts of dumb shit when you're five, it will - in most cases (there are exceptions) shape your 20s as well. Becoming "an adult" does not automatically erase your childhood. There is no specific age when you autonomously make the decision that everything society told, taught, forced and encouraged you to do is wrong and that you should walk a different path.

As for crypto, I've understood that the tools of rebellion and resistance are not always what they seem. The Internet tempted people to go online because it was seen as a place of freedom and opportunity beyond the controls of the "traditional players". As it turned out, it seems like it was a trap all along to make the "traditional players" more powerful and more in control than ever. In 20 years, the dominating crypto currency/currencies at that time may just turn out the exact same way - a trap, which through the digitalisation of currencies prevent you from doing any business without it being traceable by those "traditional players".

Swansman said:

The thing is that your childhood affects your life moving onwards so if you get heavily brainwashed into all sorts of dumb shit when you're five, it will - in most cases (there are exceptions) shape your 20s as well. Becoming "an adult" does not automatically erase your childhood. There is no specific age when you autonomously make the decision that everything society told, taught, forced and encouraged you to do is wrong and that you should walk a different path.

As for crypto, I've understood that the tools of rebellion and resistance are not always what they seem. The Internet tempted people to go online because it was seen as a place of freedom and opportunity beyond the controls of the "traditional players". As it turned out, it seems like it was a trap all along to make the "traditional players" more powerful and more in control than ever. In 20 years, the dominating crypto currency/currencies at that time may just turn out the exact same way - a trap, which through the digitalisation of currencies prevent you from doing any business without it being traceable by those "traditional players".

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In my childhood being Gen X we lived through the cold war and being told one push of a button and the world ends. Just like that, all gone.

Now with the Russia conflict once again I've seen young people freaking out. Hopefully people of my generation are talking to them and guiding them to a path of not to pay attention to the media and to live life to the fullest rather than get sucked in by that bullshit. We came out at the end of it fine ( well ok we are a very cynical generation thanks to it which isn't totally a bad thing) and so should people be pumping the kids full of the best parts of life rather than weighing them down with the worst. That's what adulthood is for.

Maybe you should look a little bit deeper into certain crypto then.

If you're into power to the regular people then there are plenty of projects where you, a 14 year old kid or a 70 year old granny can partake in it's governance.

Ethereum cannot be owned or controlled by anyone.

I support that concept wholly.

https://youtu.be/HtCjLG8VMm4

Good points, well made.

Neville's Breakfast said:

I consider my view across a range of issues and of course that includes the young. I would imagine most people do. Just because you disagree with somebody that does not give you (or them) some sort of moral high ground.

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Moral high ground - I asked you a question which you've just misdirected. Anyway, I'll let you carry on not taking the moral high ground with [MENTION=38333]Swansman[/MENTION].