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[Politics] Are Germany next to turn back to the dark side?



jcdenton08

jcdenton08

Enemy of the People
NSC Patron
Oct 17, 2008
10,670
With Europe hanging on a knife edge, Germany have hugely ramped up defence spending and continue to "do business" with Russia, despite the alleged "zeitenwende" shortly after the invasion of Ukraine. This hasn't actually changed anything and there are big question marks about Germany's commitment to isolating Russia.

With the bloc in disarray, and Germany's history (living memory) of land grabbing and warmongering, is there even an outside chance we might see Germany make a move?

Just something to be wary of.
 






Southern Scouse

Southern Scouse

Well-known member
Jul 21, 2011
2,023
A little OTT, however, there are still a lot of old East German politico’s with fingers in many pies.
 


Bold Seagull

Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
29,789
Hove
jcdenton08 said:
With Europe hanging on a knife edge, Germany have hugely ramped up defence spending and continue to "do business" with Russia, despite the alleged "zeitenwende" shortly after the invasion of Ukraine. This hasn't actually changed anything and there are big question marks about Germany's commitment to isolating Russia.

With the bloc in disarray, and Germany's history (living memory) of land grabbing and warmongering, is there even an outside chance we might see Germany make a move?

Just something to be wary of.
Click to expand...

You have to remember that pre-1990 East Germany was part of the Soviet Bloc, from 1949 their infrastructure, pipelines etc. all linking back to Russia. Post 1990 they didn’t just dismantle all that they just layered over it.

Germany has also looked to maintain East-West relations by diplomatically treating Russia as a trading partner. That has gone horribly wrong, but the thinking was in the right place.

It’s all very well with our North Sea gas and other supplies having never relied on Russia sitting in our ivory tower, but I just wonder how our government would react if we had to effectively turn our economy off?

The historic context of the Cold War and East and West Germany is the key thing to think about here.
 








Seasider78

Seasider78

Well-known member
Nov 14, 2004
5,937
Germany largely pulls the strings in the EU so given the EU action taken against Russia it is hardly a surprise they see an increased threat requiring a strengthening of defence. I am sure like others Germany will also be accelerating plans to remove reliance on Russian supply but for the time being (like many other nations) they have to keep paying the bill to stop the lights going out

The suggestion this is a restart of a German war machine is ridiculous and a cheap dig at a nation trying to move on and learn from their history. The reaction and support of the Germans to take in refugees puts us to shame IMO and shows a progressive nation
 


B-right-on

B-right-on

Living the dream
Apr 23, 2015
6,171
Shoreham Beaaaach
A third of Germany’s oil imports, 45 percent of its coal purchases and 55 percent of gas imports come from Russia.

They're fooked without it.

At the same time 3/4 of their exports are to the rest of the EU and the USA so they're fookt without that.
 






Bold Seagull

Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
29,789
Hove
Germany also lags behind defence spending with something like 1.5% of GDP compared to the UKs 2.2%. They’ve also post reunification always supported diplomacy over conflict, whereas we’ve been heavily involved in Afghanistan and Iraq wars.

As others have said also a lead voice in the European political union that has largely bought peace to the continent. You could argue leaving political unions destabilises peace rather than reinforcing it.
 








N

Neville's Breakfast

Well-known member
May 1, 2016
13,423
Oxton, Birkenhead
Bold Seagull said:
Germany also lags behind defence spending with something like 1.5% of GDP compared to the UKs 2.2%. They’ve also post reunification always supported diplomacy over conflict, whereas we’ve been heavily involved in Afghanistan and Iraq wars.

As others have said also a lead voice in the European political union that has largely bought peace to the continent. You could argue leaving political unions destabilises peace rather than reinforcing it.
Click to expand...

That is also Putin’s view re Russia/Ukraine and the rest of the former Soviet bloc. I think there is always a powerful voice for the status quo but equally good reasons for change. As to the OP I don’t think we have anything to worry about. Liberal democracy is very well established in Germany and they have been amongst the leaders in imposing sanctions. Their big mistake was probably the speed with which they have embraced the energy transition and phasing out of coal. This has left them horribly exposed to blackmail from Russia.
 


Guinness Boy

Guinness Boy

Tofu eating wokerati
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patron
Jul 23, 2003
34,131
Up and Coming Sunny Portslade




Green Cross Code Man

Green Cross Code Man

Wunt be druv
Mar 30, 2006
19,708
Eastbourne
Germany is a wonderful country. I know dozens of Germans, many in my family and they are very level-headed and also wise about the military mistakes from their past. This desire not to repeat former behaviour has been a powerful brake in terms of defence spending, you can hardly blame them, but things are changing dramatically now. One can hardly expect such a huge paradigm shift to take place overnight. Give them time.
 


M

Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
16,647
Fiveways
jcdenton08 said:
With Europe hanging on a knife edge, Germany have hugely ramped up defence spending and continue to "do business" with Russia, despite the alleged "zeitenwende" shortly after the invasion of Ukraine. This hasn't actually changed anything and there are big question marks about Germany's commitment to isolating Russia.

With the bloc in disarray, and Germany's history (living memory) of land grabbing and warmongering, is there even an outside chance we might see Germany make a move?

Just something to be wary of.
Click to expand...

Well, there's a litany of false premises in this post.
 


D

darkwolf666

Well-known member
Nov 8, 2015
7,576
Sittingbourne, Kent
Seasider78 said:
Germany largely pulls the strings in the EU so given the EU action taken against Russia it is hardly a surprise they see an increased threat requiring a strengthening of defence. I am sure like others Germany will also be accelerating plans to remove reliance on Russian supply but for the time being (like many other nations) they have to keep paying the bill to stop the lights going out

The suggestion this is a restart of a German war machine is ridiculous and a cheap dig at a nation trying to move on and learn from their history. The reaction and support of the Germans to take in refugees puts us to shame IMO and shows a progressive nation
Click to expand...

Oh come now, a reasoned sensible response isn't what people want to read, they want the soundbite, jingoistic, slightly nationalistic stance of the OP's message...
 
Last edited:


vegster

vegster

Sanity Clause
May 5, 2008
27,892
Seasider78 said:
Germany largely pulls the strings in the EU so given the EU action taken against Russia it is hardly a surprise they see an increased threat requiring a strengthening of defence. I am sure like others Germany will also be accelerating plans to remove reliance on Russian supply but for the time being (like many other nations) they have to keep paying the bill to stop the lights going out

The suggestion this is a restart of a German war machine is ridiculous and a cheap dig at a nation trying to move on and learn from their history. The reaction and support of the Germans to take in refugees puts us to shame IMO and shows a progressive nation
Click to expand...
Well said. Absolutely ridiculous to suggest anything even slightly dodgy from the Germans in 2022 , the OP should stop watching old war movies and reading his Commando magazines .." Gott in Himmel " !
 








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