[Other Sport] Follow up to Cheltenham Festival

Creaky · Mar 31, 2022

Since I got banned from the original Cheltenham thread for posting that one horse had died in the first race there have been numerous other deaths.

At Cheltenham a further three horses died, eight days ago two more died, one at Plumpton and one at Wincanton. During the last week another five horses died during or immediately after racing.

Any activity, other than horse racing, where an animal was either forced to run until it literally dropped dead or made to jump obstacles that caused a fatal injury there would undoubtedly be an official investigation and steps would be taken to immediately reduce future risks.

Horse racing per se is not the problem - what is the problem is the total indifference shown when a horse is killed - the race continues, the “winner” is cheered over the line, even if it later dies of exhaustion. If I chased one of my horses around the field until it fell exhausted and died I would most likely, and quite rightly so, be prosecuted for animal cruelty. On a racecourse this is a regular occurrence.

Of course deaths at race meetings are only the tip of the iceberg and the business has a record of overbreeding which leads to numerous problems.

The indifference shown for the welfare of horses is no better illustrated than silencing those raising the issue because it might cause a discussion to take place other than the “excitement” about placing bets.

These are the posts that got me banned

Very short odds on horse deaths at the festival this year
https://www.animalaid.org.uk/the-iss...tival-figures/

Oh, I see - it’s ok to ignore the cruelty associated to horse racing because others enjoy it and don’t want to face facts.

No I won’t refrain from posting about what is essentially a cruel and immoral so called “sport”.

Shallwehaveonemore

Age - 5
Novice Hurdle

Cause of death: Fell - Injured - Destroyed

When is it ever right to ignore animal cruelty - I’m sure that activists against hare coursing etc. were often told to ignore it and let others enjoy their “sport”. Thankfully those that abhor animal cruelty continued to protest.

If you enjoy and support horse racing then be prepared to accept that you are also supporting animal cruelty. Don’t simply tell those pointing this out to “go away”

Animal cruelty is every much a part of horse racing, especially the Cheltenham Festival, as much a part as the betting on the horses taking part is. To deny this is very difficult when a horse dies in the very first race of the meeting.

Do what you must in terms of a ban, demonstrate your own moral compass.

Arthur · Mar 31, 2022

Da Man Clay · Mar 31, 2022

BN9 BHA · Mar 31, 2022

Arthur said:

Not really fishing IMO.

OP obviously likes horses and wasn’t allowed to comment on the betting / horse racing thread and got banned, we seem to have threads on various subjects so why not this one?

Creaky · Apr 3, 2022

bn9 bha said:
Not really fishing IMO.

OP obviously likes horses and wasn’t allowed to comment on the betting / horse racing thread and got banned, we seem to have threads on various subjects so why not this one?

If fishing is regarded as a post that is attempting to garner a reaction then, yes, my post is fishing.

The fact that it so spectacularly failed to do so only goes to prove my earlier assertion that the deaths of horses directly attributable to racing are ignored by most.

The ONLY purpose of horse racing is to provide a medium for people to place bets on the outcome of races, (other than on the survival of a horse of course). This is clearly demonstrated by the number of posts on the original Cheltenham thread. The death of horses due to racing is an uncomfortable fact - so uncomfortable that those betting on races are unwilling to face the truth or even acknowledge that it happens.

Again, my posts on the original thread go to show the above. The originator of that thread started by saying that if you don’t like horse racing then don’t post, this was supported by a moderator who took steps to make sure that the truth wasn’t posted, with the only justification for this being that horse racing was legal! Lots of “things” are legal, doesn’t make them right or moral.

If anyone can show why forcing an animal to keep running until the point that they drop down dead is ok then I would be interested to see their reasoning.

Neville's Breakfast · Apr 3, 2022

The OP makes good points

The Lemming Stomper · Apr 3, 2022

.

Sad scenes at yesterdays Scottish Grand National with the screens around Jersey Bean..The field went round him twice and the outcome was inevitable..

All the cheering and celebrating the winner while he was being put down is, like I said at the start, very sad...

I'm not sure what the answer is as would these horses even exist if it wasn't for racing?

It can't just be jump racing as on the Animal Aid deathwatch site Lingfield AW flat is at the top

sydney · Apr 3, 2022

Creaky said:
If fishing is regarded as a post that is attempting to garner a reaction then, yes, my post is fishing.

The fact that it so spectacularly failed to do so only goes to prove my earlier assertion that the deaths of horses directly attributable to racing are ignored by most.

The ONLY purpose of horse racing is to provide a medium for people to place bets on the outcome of races, (other than on the survival of a horse of course). This is clearly demonstrated by the number of posts on the original Cheltenham thread. The death of horses due to racing is an uncomfortable fact - so uncomfortable that those betting on races are unwilling to face the truth or even acknowledge that it happens.

Again, my posts on the original thread go to show the above. The originator of that thread started by saying that if you don’t like horse racing then don’t post, this was supported by a moderator who took steps to make sure that the truth wasn’t posted, with the only justification for this being that horse racing was legal! Lots of “things” are legal, doesn’t make them right or moral.

If anyone can show why forcing an animal to keep running until the point that they drop down dead is ok then I would be interested to see their reasoning.

i am a fan of flat racing , i do however find steeple chasing brutal and relatively cruel , seeing an animal lump 70 odd kg's for upwards of 3 miles , over jumps 5 ft tall and then to be flogged to buggery over the last 3 furlongs i find quite confronting , i love horses they are beautiful animals , it is always tragic to see them destroyed.

Wrong-Direction · Apr 3, 2022

It's sad but unfortunately it won't stop, it's a rich man's sport.

Sent from my SM-A326B using Tapatalk

Neville's Breakfast · Apr 3, 2022

Wrong-Direction said:
It's sad but unfortunately it won't stop, it's a rich man's sport.

Sent from my SM-A326B using Tapatalk

Not really. Traditionally much enjoyed by the working classes. The owners being wealthy tells us about as much as PL football club owners being wealthy and there aren’t many billionaires in the stands. I used to live in Ascot so got to see the yobbish behaviour first hand and believe me it transcended class.

wuntbedruv · Apr 3, 2022

All forms of gambling should be banned is a bit of a stretch especially as my SIPP is on various Stock exchanges around the world.
All forms of gambling risk serious harm to the gambler ( if only financial) but like the OP I have no time for bets that risk injury to animals.

Both forms of legal animal betting consent to mutilation of the animals and place unnecessary stress of the bodies of them, the breeding of animals that are euthenised if not "up to standard" and reduction of the available geenepool by over selective breeding, Dog racing also has difficulties with disposal of dogs beyond their prime.

Gamble if you must but make it on cards, the Stock markets, Darts, participant sports or even the boat race but betting on animals should be stopped.

martin tyler · Apr 3, 2022

I don t think the OP is fishing at all and opinion is valid as anyone.

So it’s clear I love horse racing. It’s not a rich man’s sport but the rich own a lot of good horses.

At no point is there ever an intent for animal cruelty in the sport. Anyone who is deliberately cruel should be punished and more severely. Racehorses are generally very well treated, loved and looked after.
Horses where jockeys fall off will always run on, ears pricked, jumping jumps enjoying what they do. That is the nature of the beast.
Feel free to try make a horse run that doesn’t want to believe me you will fail.
A horse can run on the flat without a jockey and break a leg and will die.

On the flip side safety can always be reviewed and improved. 0.18% of runners over the past 20 years have resulted in a fatality. It is to many still, likewise anyone known or seen to be mistreating an animal should be banned.

Overall, there’s no denying that horse racing comes with risks – it can be a dangerous sport, both for jockeys and horses, but it’s also a sport that has taken as many measures as possible to keep riders and the animals as safe as possible. Horses are extremely well-cared for and are in no way mistreated, on or off the track, nor are they unhappy about running. Personally I don’t deem the sport cruel

Creaky · Apr 3, 2022

martin tyler said:
I don t think the OP is fishing at all and opinion is valid as anyone.

So it’s clear I love horse racing. It’s not a rich man’s sport but the rich own a lot of good horses.

At no point is there ever an intent for animal cruelty in the sport. Anyone who is deliberately cruel should be punished and more severely. Racehorses are generally very well treated, loved and looked after.
Horses where jockeys fall off will always run on, ears pricked, jumping jumps enjoying what they do. That is the nature of the beast.
Feel free to try make a horse run that doesn’t want to believe me you will fail.
A horse can run on the flat without a jockey and break a leg and will die.

On the flip side safety can always be reviewed and improved. 0.18% of runners over the past 20 years have resulted in a fatality. It is to many still, likewise anyone known or seen to be mistreating an animal should be banned.

Overall, there’s no denying that horse racing comes with risks – it can be a dangerous sport, both for jockeys and horses, but it’s also a sport that has taken as many measures as possible to keep riders and the animals as safe as possible. Horses are extremely well-cared for and are in no way mistreated, on or off the track, nor are they unhappy about running. Personally I don’t deem the sport cruel

Have you ever wondered why when a jockey falls off a horse continues to run? The reason is quite simple, they are a prey animal and safety lies with the herd. A herd of wild horses will run from a predator, jump over obstacles, ears will be pricked - are you trying to tell me they do so from enjoyment? How many wild horses or ponies die from exhaustion unless they are terrified and/or being chased?

It is very easy to make ANY horse run, simply scare them. They will always take the flight option unless they are unable to do so then have to fight.

The idea that the “sport” takes all measures to make it as safe as possible is quite simply laughable. You say, “ At no point is there ever an intent for animal cruelty in the sport” yet the sport itself is inherently cruel.

13 horses dead in the last couple of weeks during races, some put down due to injuries, others simply dead from exhaustion.

Was there an independent enquiry after each incident to find out the cause? Of course not, just possibly a check to see that the “rules” weren’t broken. The racing industry is very good at holding self serving enquiries. Resulting in minor changes but mainly “promises that changes will be made. Quite often these enquiries go on for years with no real conclusion, very much in the “Yes Minister” vein.

Horse deaths during races is just the tip of the iceberg - overbreeding of thoroughbreds has been going on for years with little or no thought to the consequences. The result being a breed that is no good for anything other than racing and thousands of unwanted animals.

JackB247 · Apr 3, 2022

martin tyler said:
I don t think the OP is fishing at all and opinion is valid as anyone.

So it’s clear I love horse racing. It’s not a rich man’s sport but the rich own a lot of good horses.

At no point is there ever an intent for animal cruelty in the sport. Anyone who is deliberately cruel should be punished and more severely. Racehorses are generally very well treated, loved and looked after.
Horses where jockeys fall off will always run on, ears pricked, jumping jumps enjoying what they do. That is the nature of the beast.
Feel free to try make a horse run that doesn’t want to believe me you will fail.
A horse can run on the flat without a jockey and break a leg and will die.

On the flip side safety can always be reviewed and improved. 0.18% of runners over the past 20 years have resulted in a fatality. It is to many still, likewise anyone known or seen to be mistreating an animal should be banned.

Overall, there’s no denying that horse racing comes with risks – it can be a dangerous sport, both for jockeys and horses, but it’s also a sport that has taken as many measures as possible to keep riders and the animals as safe as possible. Horses are extremely well-cared for and are in no way mistreated, on or off the track, nor are they unhappy about running. Personally I don’t deem the sport cruel

Just wanted to add to this post - I work for the BHA - which governs and regulates British horseracing - and the attitude I have come across in the industry is that people (with the exception of the odd idiot) care deeply about the health of the horses and there is a great deal going on to try and reduce risk and the number of equine fatalities .

The Horse Welfare Board was founded in 2019 and British racing is currently in the process of implementing the recommendation of its report 'A life well-lived', I would urge anyone who hasn't read that to do so. Britain now has the mostly tightly regulated horseracing industry in the world from a welfare stand point.

However much the industry does, the fatality figure will never be 0 given with equine physiology being the way it is some injuries that horses pick up can simply be untreatable. Horses are not immortal, and its just about mitigating risk as best we can and ensuring that racehorses in the industry live extremely well at all stages of their lives.

The horses are forced to race argument is always an interesting one but am of the view that, a thoroughbred racehorse is a half ton animal, if he or she doesn't want to run, there is often little the 8-12 stone jockey on the back can do about it.

Racing will never be for everyone and I realise I'm probably never going to change the opinion of someone like the OP, but I'm firm in my belief that racing is not cruel and that horseracing has a place in British sport and society.

Creaky · Apr 3, 2022

JackB247 said:
Just wanted to add to this post - I work for the BHA - which governs and regulates British horseracing - and the attitude I have come across in the industry is that people (with the exception of the odd idiot) care deeply about the health of the horses and there is a great deal going on to try and reduce risk and the number of equine fatalities .

The Horse Welfare Board was founded in 2019 and British racing is currently in the process of implementing the recommendation of its report 'A life well-lived', I would urge anyone who hasn't read that to do so. Britain now has the mostly tightly regulated horseracing industry in the world from a welfare stand point.

However much the industry does, the fatality figure will never be 0 given with equine physiology being the way it is some injuries that horses pick up can simply be untreatable. Horses are not immortal, and its just about mitigating risk as best we can and ensuring that racehorses in the industry live extremely well at all stages of their lives.

The horses are forced to race argument is always an interesting one but am of the view that, a thoroughbred racehorse is a half ton animal, if he or she doesn't want to run, there is often little the 8-12 stone jockey on the back can do about it.

Racing will never be for everyone and I realise I'm probably never going to change the opinion of someone like the OP, but I'm firm in my belief that racing is not cruel and that horseracing has a place in British sport and society.

As I said, enquiries, recommendations and eventually little or nothing done go on for years - that link is dated over two years ago - in the 12 months up to its publication 179 horses died during or immediately after a race - in the last 12 months the figure is 208 horses killed - the level of progress that is standard for the racing industry!

martin tyler · Apr 3, 2022

Creaky said:
As I said, enquiries, recommendations and eventually little or nothing done go on for years - that link is dated over two years ago - in the 12 months up to its publication 179 horses died during or immediately after a race - in the last 12 months the figure is 208 horses killed - the level of progress that is standard for the racing industry!

Percentage wise up to this year it’s actually lower as the number of runners has increased year on year. Across the globe figures as a percentage are falling and continue to do so. Was 0.3% 20 years ago to 0.2% this year so a third drop.
Your opinion is it’s a cruel sport and is a valid opinion if that’s what you believe, we won’t convince you otherwise, likewise many people in touch with the sport won’t agree with your opinion either.

Creaky · Apr 3, 2022

martin tyler said:
Percentage wise up to this year it’s actually lower as the number of runners has increased year on year. Across the globe figures as a percentage are falling and continue to do so. Was 0.3% 20 years ago to 0.2% this year so a third drop.
Your opinion is it’s a cruel sport and is a valid opinion if that’s what you believe, we won’t convince you otherwise, likewise many people in touch with the sport won’t agree with your opinion either.

What are the percentage figures for the UK? I don’t have much knowledge of standards in the rest of the world which may or may not be higher than the UK. The report you referred to covers British horse racing.

In 2011 there was an “enquiry” and consultation on the use of the whip in racing, in 2021 yet another “enquiry” and “consultation”. There are only two possible reasons for these, either they are simply a PR exercise which need to be carried out on a regular basis or some individuals within the industry actually recognise that there is something wrong in their use. The same conclusion can be made about the “Life Well Lived” report.

As for your assertion in an earlier post that you can’t make a horse run that doesn’t want to - then I agree in so far as a horse wants to run when it’s scared. Horses will run as well when they are excited and sometimes for simple pleasure - if you have ever watched a group of horses let out into a new pasture you will know what I mean BUT when in this mode they don’t just run, they rear up, they will twist and turn and run at each other - what they won’t do is race each other - the only time a herd of horses will run together is when they are in flight mode.

I do believe that horse racing in its current form is cruel and no, you won’t change my mind on that. Actual racing could be made safe whilst also keeping the breed safe but doing so would require jockeys to stop when they feel it’s in the horses best interest without being criticised nor sanctioned for doing so - fewer runners in any one race - raising of the minimum age of horses to 5 year olds - the abolition of jumps and a full investigation into each and every accident with results made public.

Will never happen of course because who would bet on a race where horses could be pulled up by a jockey purely on his/her discretion. For that matter where would you find a jockey that would pull up their steed when about to win a race but it was in the best interest of the horse to stop?

Raising the minimum age of horses, not only for racing but also for backing them and training them would cost money that I suspect would put off many owners.

rippleman · Apr 4, 2022

My best pal owned a horse in a small syndicate many years ago. We had some great fun with it and it picked up some decent prizes. I was at Lingfield for its first run on the AW. It ran very poorly and after the jockey dismounted he said to the trainer" he hated it. I wouldn't run him on the AW again. Few weeks later the trainer decided to run him on the AW again......he got injured and wasn't able to race again.

He went to a local farm as a hack and saw out his days introducing kids to riding. He had a very good time of it despite his racing career being ended by injury. Whilst acknowledging that sometimes injuries are so bad that a horse needs to be destroyed, it isn't necessarily all gloom and doom as the OP would have us believe.

Yes, horses are athletes and they get injured. Just the same as human sportspeople get injured and sometimes that ends their sporting careers. Humans have died playing rugby, football, boxing, motor sport and even bloody cricket.

Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊

[Other Sport] Follow up to Cheltenham Festival

Well-known member

Well-known member

T'Blades

DOCKERS

Well-known member

Well-known member

790

tinky ****in winky

Well-known member

Well-known member

Imagine

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Share this page