[Help] Leasehold flat electrical permissions help please!

Evening all, I'm in dire need of some help please....

Myself and Mrs Spongy and due to complete on our first mortgage on friday.

Its where we want to live and have been desperate to move back there.

Its a 3 bed flat that is under the leaseholder Clarion.

We got it cheap but it needed a complete re-wire as the electrics are awful.... (one single socket on each side of each room and everything running off multiple extension leads and an old school grey fuse wire fuse board)

With the knock down price we paid we still have enough money to pay for a complete re-wire and also to drop the ceilings 50mm to install downlights.

We have been led to believe by the estate agents we could have "right of access" for a fortnight from the seller to get the works done before we move in so had a quote for everything within budget. At no point prior to receipt of our property pack/lease we we advised by any party that permission would be needed. Naivety on our part....yes.....but at least we now knew where we stood and could request the permission. For what its worth the sellers reneged on the right of access, on the advice of their solicitors. On reflection this was sound call from them.....makes us wonder whether they knew about permission at this point, but this was not relayed at the time.

We still wanted to go ahead knowing that due to state of the electrics, permission would be granted........................However..................

On exchange we have since found out we need written permission from Clarion for this type of work to be carried out.... But we only have 2 weeks to get it done.... I dont think theres a cat in hells chance of getting permission in time before we have to move in on the 28th....

We have found a paragraph in the lease that says we need written permission from the freeholder (Clarion) to carry it out..

Fair enough....

But after recieving their "License" paperwork there is a section 3 dedicated to the "retrospective consent" for works already done. This consent only applies if the works have been carried out by a "competent person", our sparkie is registered as a "competent person" and holds NICEIC accreditation so my understanding is that we can carry out the works and retrospectively obtain the license as all we have to do is fill out the boxes on their form which they can verify.

We will have all the certificates and paperwork to prove this.

Would we be wrong to get it done and then retrospectively apply for the license as all boxes on their demands have been met as works have been carried out by professionals?

We have two ways to deal with this.....

Get the work done and hope the license is accepted as it meets their criteria....

Or have to wait and have a complete rewire done whilst we live there and go room to room after the license is granted?

To go a bit deeper into my thinking is that until the license is granted we cannot touch the existing wiring...

So in theory we are within the terms of our lease to batten the ceilings, run first fix cables above the new ceiling height, chase walls, install the sockets and lights etc and board the lowered ceilings but not the last part of disconnecting the old board and then connecting back up on the new wiring as that then triggers the license terms?

The Mrs is now having second thoughts about starting work and getting most of it done before we move in and I understand her reservations but if Clarion state in their own paperwork that as long as the license can be applied for and signed off retrospectively as long as they are completed by a "competent person" and certified then I cant see the issue of being in breach of leasehold.

Or am I completely wrong and should wait for the license to be granted after we move in?

So confused and stressed about this whole situation.

First off well done on finding the place and getting all set to complete

Clarion I would have thought will be quite reasonable to deal with - but I would go on the cautious side and get works done after you have all the right permissions

From experience I would say once you live there you may change minds about what to put where - plus the sparkie may start coming up with I never realised this / didn't quote for that etc and costs rise which are far easier to control once having work done when you are living there

Though when we had a full rewire and extension and other half put double sockets everywhere which I thought was excessive but would now have to admit was right way to go as makes rooms totally flexible re what goes where

Found city electrical factors a great place to go and choose the fittings we had and prices quite reasonable too

Good luck

The EIC certificate issued by an NICEIC registered sparks is the standard for certification of all electrical works.

As long as its done by this sparks, registered with the local building control, you have fulfilled your 'legal' requirements. The managing agents should be totally fine with this as essentially there is nothing else that can be done to make it better /safer or any other consideration.

A rewire is a messy old job. Doing it with no one in the flat is much easier and should be a bit cheaper as climbing over and protecting furniture doesn't become an issue. So it probably will cost more if you are living there.

Also I think it's better to seek approval of things done correctly, than ask for permission.

I would be surprised if the lease said that Clarion was compelled to grant retrospective permission solely on the basis that any work done was performed by a competent person. I would imagine that it also says something along the lines that any such work needs their prior permission (perhaps with a rider of ‘not to be unreasonably withheld’).

I would expect the retrospective permission clauses give Clarion the ability to grant retrospective permission, not compel them to do so (save, perhaps, for work to correct something dangerous).

If I was unsure about whether retrospective permission relied solely on the work being done by a competent person, I’d ask my lawyer for an opinion on the relevant clauses.

Good luck.

ac gull said:

First off well done on finding the place and getting all set to complete

Clarion I would have thought will be quite reasonable to deal with - but I would go on the cautious side and get works done after you have all the right permissions

From experience I would say once you live there you may change minds about what to put where - plus the sparkie may start coming up with I never realised this / didn't quote for that etc and costs rise which are far easier to control once having work done when you are living there

Though when we had a full rewire and extension and other half put double sockets everywhere which I thought was excessive but would now have to admit was right way to go as makes rooms totally flexible re what goes where

Found city electrical factors a great place to go and choose the fittings we had and prices quite reasonable too

Good luck

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Cheers mate. We've spent the last 6 months (yes it has taken that long since we put the offer in) looking at photos and floorplans and numerous visits to decide on furniture placement etc.

We've gone over board on sockets to give us flexibility and to allow us to rearrange furniture etc and higher level sockets and conduits for wall mounted tv's in every room.

My brother in law is a manager at CEF so all materials are at staff discounts which helps.

Our Sparks has given an agreed fixed price after a very thorough inspection prior to quoting the job.

It's just so ****ing gutting getting so close to have it go tits up 2 weeks before moving in.

Two weeks sounds tight to lower ceiling rewire, board and skim ceiling/making good chases decorating and then second fix electrical works in a three bed flat.

Good luck in the new flat,

It’s in the whole building’s best interest that the flat you’re buying meets the current regulations as far as electrics are concerned and that argument alone is why in your shoes I’d go ahead and get the works done, I guess the only side niggle is is the ceiling drop you plan.


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Wait for the permission. You could be in breach of the mortgage if not. You could ask your solicitor to get the ball rolling now and for them to push the freeholder to expedite the certificate.

Are you using a local solicitors or a national conveyancing firm? A local solicitor will have less files and probably more experience. Ask to chat to them for advice.

Never ever trust an agent when they talk about legal issues.

B-right-on said:

The EIC certificate issued by an NICEIC registered sparks is the standard for certification of all electrical works.

As long as its done by this sparks, registered with the local building control, you have fulfilled your 'legal' requirements. The managing agents should be totally fine with this as essentially there is nothing else that can be done to make it better /safer or any other consideration.

A rewire is a messy old job. Doing it with no one in the flat is much easier and should be a bit cheaper as climbing over and protecting furniture doesn't become an issue. So it probably will cost more if you are living there.

Also I think it's better to seek approval of things done correctly, than ask for permission.

Click to expand...

This is the issue. The other flats in the block have had extensive work done, including re-wiring and room size alterations.

This will be no different, I have absolutely no doubt that the license/permission will be granted either before or after works are done..........

Previous owners have drilled through the wall behind the fuseboard and proceeded to tack some twin and earth from the board, down the wall and around the skirting board to a surface mount double socket. None of it contained so it is free for our 2 year old to come along and start pulling at with inquisitive fingers. And this is one example of why it's needed done urgently.

It's the whole not being able to talk to them or obtain the license until we legally own it on Friday thing....

The delay puts our whole time frame out of the window.......

We even completed 2 weeks earlier than we wanted to give us some time to get this done as right of access was denied.

Goldstone1976 said:

I would be surprised if the lease said that Clarion was compelled to grant retrospective permission solely on the basis that any work done was performed by a competent person. I would imagine that it also says something along the lines that any such work needs their prior permission (perhaps with a rider of ‘not to be unreasonably withheld’).

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Goldstone1976 said:

I would expect the retrospective permission clauses give Clarion the ability to grant retrospective permission, not compel them to do so (save, perhaps, for work to correct something dangerous).

If I was unsure about whether retrospective permission relied solely on the work being done by a competent person, I’d ask my lawyer for an opinion on the relevant clauses.

Good luck.

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The first highlighted bit is correct. The lease states we need written permission. The flat was built in the 60's and is the lease that previous work has been carried out under. Clarion have since taken control of the block.

However...... Clarions own process has a designated section for license approval for works already carried out. They will not unreasonably refuse a license if the person is a competent person. Our sparks hold that accreditation through NICEIC.

We are not knocking through walls or altering the layout in any way that needs a surveyor or building control to get involved. The Sparks having NICEIC means that the local authority do not need to inspect after works are carried out.

And the italic bit I think k can be construed as "unsafe" with small children in the flat.

Justice said:

Two weeks sounds tight to lower ceiling rewire, board and skim ceiling/making good chases decorating and then second fix electrical works in a three bed flat.

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I dont think so.

The sparks want a week but said he can finish in 4 days at a push.

The builder is going in at the same time to drop the ceilings and follow the sparks closing up and making good chasing and plaster the new ceilings. The ceiling drop is literally only 50mm so just 2" battening all around, just enough to run the cables above.

Decorating is then up to us as and when we are in. I cannot explain how much I don't want to live in a building site moving stuff around room to room with a 7 year old and a 2 year old with us.

Sergei's Celebration said:

Wait for the permission. You could be in breach of the mortgage if not. You could ask your solicitor to get the ball rolling now and for them to push the freeholder to expedite the certificate.

Are you using a local solicitors or a national conveyancing firm? A local solicitor will have less files and probably more experience. Ask to chat to them for advice.

Never ever trust an agent when they talk about legal issues.

Click to expand...

It's a local firm who specialise in conveyancing. I'm chasing them up today to make sure they've told Clarion that we will be the new owners.

Do it.

spongy said:

I dont think so.

The sparks want a week but said he can finish in 4 days at a push.

The builder is going in at the same time to drop the ceilings and follow the sparks closing up and making good chasing and plaster the new ceilings. The ceiling drop is literally only 50mm so just 2" battening all around, just enough to run the cables above.

Decorating is then up to us as and when we are in. I cannot explain how much I don't want to live in a building site moving stuff around room to room with a 7 year old and a 2 year old with us.

Click to expand...

Do you have concrete ceilings?

spongy said:

This is the issue. The other flats in the block have had extensive work done, including re-wiring and room size alterations.

This will be no different, I have absolutely no doubt that the license/permission will be granted either before or after works are done..........

Previous owners have drilled through the wall behind the fuseboard and proceeded to tack some twin and earth from the board, down the wall and around the skirting board to a surface mount double socket. None of it contained so it is free for our 2 year old to come along and start pulling at with inquisitive fingers. And this is one example of why it's needed done urgently.
.

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Reinforces my thought that I would get it done and then submit paperwork.

spongy said:

Decorating is then up to us as and when we are in. I cannot explain how much I don't want to live in a building site moving stuff around room to room with a 7 year old and a 2 year old with us.

Click to expand...

You have no idea how much your trades will want an empty flat too. Especially the plasterer, skimming the ceilings with furniture in the way, not to mention the mess inevitably made whilst plastering. .

Time does seem tight as mentioned.

I’d get it done and claim retrospectively. Realistically it is only going to be an issue when you come to sell to have all this stuff in place.

I had similar ok my first flat when I put double glazing in - albeit it wasn’t Clarion (who are the largest housing association / management firm in the U.K… a few horror stories) but management was run by resident committee who were very good.

Clarion from memory were a bit of a nightmare when I lived in a leasehold managed by them. Whilst they might give retrospective permission you may find it comes at a bit of a cost. They were also painfully slow to agree most things. I’d give them a call in the first instance instead of trusting the written method to work it’s way through.

With such a compelling case for retrospective approval being granted and the job made significantly more easier with an empty property, I would do it now.

Hey, leaseholds eh, the nightmares thereof ...

As someone that has brought, renovated and then sold many leasehold properties I'd say just do it. You're not doing anything out of the ordinary and generally the freeholder doesn't care that much. Just make sure all work is done at a reasonable time of day ( no 7am starts ! ) and you get the certs for the work.

spongy said:

It's a local firm who specialise in conveyancing. I'm chasing them up today to make sure they've told Clarion that we will be the new owners.

Click to expand...

Is lowering the ceiling absolutely essential or is it just for downlights? Are you losing any existing coving details etc. or is the existing ceiling in poor repair? Could wiring be rodded through existing voids about the existing ceiling? Plenty of really decent surface mounted downlight fittings out there, and the sparks should have a decent set of carbon fibre rods to thread wiring round an existing ceiling if it was an option and a lot less work / expense.