[Football] Aussie Player Comes Out

Poojah · Oct 27, 2021

nickbrighton said:
Basically you are touching on positive discrimination, and thats a very difficult topic.

My view is NO, we dont want anything other than to be treated just like everybody else. If I apply for a job, I want to get it because I am the best not because I am second or third best but as I am gay I get it in preference to the straight white guy who is better suited than me

The difficulty is though that in saying we want to be treated exactly like everyone else is that all the time we arent then we do want some "special treatment",

I will give you an example, I actually want gay bars to be predominantly frequented by gay people . Recently went to a gay bar, and found it to be mainly straight females (Hern night) and a few straight guys all of whom outnumbered the gay people in there. Now that kind of grated a bit, even though it should be fine not to have segregated bars, clubs etc. I was with a couple of gay friends and we were just having a laugh but we got definite Vibes that made us uncomfortable being gay in a gay bar in St James Street!!!

The reason I was a bit put out, is that I can not go to a straight bar or club and show the normal PDA that my straight compatriots would , therefore I still need a safe, predominantly gay place to be comfortable in. Thats not to say I want exclusively gay bars, but I do want to feel comfortable in a supposed gay bar

So YES we want to be treated like everyone else and get no special treatment, but we want everyone to understand being tolerated is not being treated equally

Thanks for that, it’s an excellent and helpful articulation of a very complex issue. It seems perfectly reasonable that in a world where you cannot comfortably be yourself in many everyday settings to want exclusive venues where likeminded people can share each other’s company without disturbance (in whatever form).

I suppose the ideal world situation is that we don’t need gay bars because gay people can engage in PDAs anywhere they like, just as straight people do, but I appreciate we’re not there yet and even a tiny minority of people with archaic views could undermine such a world. How you transition from where we are today to there, I don’t pretend to know.

For me, the last line of your post distils all you’ve said into a sentence in a way that should be pretty simple for most decent people to comprehend and get on board with. It’s just a case with what you do with the remainder.

Creaky · Oct 27, 2021

nickbrighton said:
my definition of homophobe is simply someone who thinks less of me because I am homosexual- i kind of think that sums it up. In the same way a racist is someone who thinks less of someone because they are a different ethnicity- i dont think that would be different from your definition or would it?

i haven't said everyone should approve of every particular lifestyle, i wouldn't expect anyone to approve a racist, sex offender, criminal lifestyle, as those are a CHOICE , but I would expect everyone to approve of people being Black, Asian, Latino, gay, trans, etc because those are factual and not lifestyle choices

It seems you disagree and think being gay is a lifestyle and therefore a choice- something that others should approve or disapprove of- its not, any more than being a different ethnicity is a choice, and something for you to approve or disapprove of- what do you call someone who disapproves of a person being a different ethnicity than themselves? if you genuinely cant see that then you are part of the problem.

I don’t approve of someone being any particular colour or ethnicity, I am totally indifferent.

In the same way as whether or not someone is gay is a matter of indifference for me. However it is a simple fact that many millions are neither indifferent or approving but so long as they are tolerant then quite frankly that is the best that can be hoped for.

I’ll come clean that I don’t like any religious denomination but I am tolerant of people’s beliefs - if that makes me religion-phobic then I accept the label.

Anyway the match is about to start.

Pretty pink fairy · Oct 27, 2021

nickbrighton said:
Basically you are touching on positive discrimination, and thats a very difficult topic.

My view is NO, we dont want anything other than to be treated just like everybody else. If I apply for a job, I want to get it because I am the best not because I am second or third best but as I am gay I get it in preference to the straight white guy who is better suited than me

The difficulty is though that in saying we want to be treated exactly like everyone else is that all the time we arent then we do want some "special treatment",

I will give you an example, I actually want gay bars to be predominantly frequented by gay people . Recently went to a gay bar, and found it to be mainly straight females (Hern night) and a few straight guys all of whom outnumbered the gay people in there. Now that kind of grated a bit, even though it should be fine not to have segregated bars, clubs etc. I was with a couple of gay friends and we were just having a laugh but we got definite Vibes that made us uncomfortable being gay in a gay bar in St James Street!!!

The reason I was a bit put out, is that I can not go to a straight bar or club and show the normal PDA that my straight compatriots would , therefore I still need a safe, predominantly gay place to be comfortable in. Thats not to say I want exclusively gay bars, but I do want to feel comfortable in a supposed gay bar

So YES we want to be treated like everyone else and get no special treatment, but we want everyone to understand being tolerated is not being treated equally

My daughter in law was asked to leave a gay bar in Brighton (pride weekend )for being to straight ,so much for being tolerant ?
Regards
DF

sydney · Oct 27, 2021

Audax said:
Unless things have changed a lot, there's some pretty backwards areas of Sydney (as with any city of any significant size). Definitely areas I wouldn't go after dark next time I find myself in the city.

However, your point stands: taken on a whole, the city is pretty tolerant and a lot of it openly encouraging. You don't have to travel far to find somewhere you might not feel welcome though. Some of the western Sydney suburbs were home to some hefty populations of backwards thinkers when I last lived in the area (Richmond [edit for clarity: I lived in Richmond, not saying that was a backwards thinking area!]).

i dare say it's changed a lot mate , western sydney is rammed with African and Indian immigrants now , the no go areas such as Redfern , Waterloo and Zetland have been "gentrified" to a degree. Belmore , Fairfield and Cabramatta pretty dodgy , smack laden hell holes....

dwayne · Oct 27, 2021

Matt Ryan?

Sent from my SM-G986B using Tapatalk

Eeyore · Oct 28, 2021

Pretty pink fairy said:
My daughter in law was asked to leave a gay bar in Brighton (pride weekend )for being to straight ,so much for being tolerant ?
Regards
DF

Needs a bit more background to the circumstances. The gay bars in Brighton are concentrated in the enclosed area during Pride thus meaning she would have had a pass.

I've not heard of anyone who isn't gay being asked to leave in recent times.

No surprise seeing you in this thread. Look forward to seeing you in the next immigrants edition.

Eeyore · Oct 28, 2021

sydney said:
i dare say it's changed a lot mate , western sydney is rammed with African and Indian immigrants now , the no go areas such as Redfern , Waterloo and Zetland have been "gentrified" to a degree. Belmore , Fairfield and Cabramatta pretty dodgy , smack laden hell holes....

When I lived in Sydney, Redfern was always making the headlines.

Tyrone Biggums · Oct 28, 2021

sydney said:
i dare say it's changed a lot mate , western sydney is rammed with African and Indian immigrants now , the no go areas such as Redfern , Waterloo and Zetland have been "gentrified" to a degree. Belmore , Fairfield and Cabramatta pretty dodgy , smack laden hell holes....

Don't forget Lakemba.

Plenty of that certain type of religion who don't like that sort of thing.

portlock seagull · Oct 28, 2021

Amazed this should be news. What a sorry world we live in. I’d get rid of social media if I were him, just look at what Ole’s received since Sunday for losing a football match. It’s a cesspit. And yes, you can live without!

nickbrighton · Oct 28, 2021

Pretty pink fairy said:
My daughter in law was asked to leave a gay bar in Brighton (pride weekend )for being to straight ,so much for being tolerant ?
Regards
DF

Brighton Lines said:
Needs a bit more background to the circumstances. The gay bars in Brighton are concentrated in the enclosed area during Pride thus meaning she would have had a pass.

I've not heard of anyone who isn't gay being asked to leave in recent times.

No surprise seeing you in this thread. Look forward to seeing you in the next immigrants edition.

I would agree Brighton Lines, over Pride those bars a rammed, and I can NEVER recall anyone being asked to leave at anytime unless they or their group were causing an issue. Pride is no longer a gay only thing and tens of thousands of straight people get tickets for the party in James St, if she was asked to leave for being straight then why werent all the rest? There is more to her story than either she or PPF is letting on
So more details needed before this can be taken at face value

highflyer · Oct 28, 2021

Creaky said:
many millions are neither indifferent or approving but so long as they are tolerant then quite frankly that is the best that can be hoped for.

No. It isn't!

'Many people are racist, but as long as they are tolerant of black people then quite frankly that is the best we can hope for'
Many people are anti-semitic, but as long as they are tolerant of Jewish people then quite frankly that is the best we can hope for'

Sounds just awful doesn't it?

I'd say we can hope for better than that!

Being gay isn't a 'lifestyle choice' to be disapproved of but tolerated. It's a fundamental, unchangeable, part of who you are. Saying that you disapprove of someone being gay it is to say that you disapprove of who they are. Effectively to disapprove of their existence.

In my opinion, straight people often underestimate how important our sexuality is to the way we conduct day to day life and social interactions, and thus how important it is to our identity. So it's sometimes hard to understand the need to 'come out' without a bit of imagination/empathy.

Creaky · Oct 28, 2021

highflyer said:
No. It isn't!

'Many people are racist, but as long as they are tolerant of black people then quite frankly that is the best we can hope for'
Many people are anti-semitic, but as long as they are tolerant of Jewish people then quite frankly that is the best we can hope for'

Sounds just awful doesn't it?

I'd say we can hope for better than that!

Being gay isn't a 'lifestyle choice' to be disapproved of but tolerated. It's a fundamental, unchangeable, part of who you are. Saying that you disapprove of someone being gay it is to say that you disapprove of who they are. Effectively to disapprove of their existence.

In my opinion, straight people often underestimate how important our sexuality is to the way we conduct day to day life and social interactions, and thus how important it is to our identity. So it's sometimes hard to understand the need to 'come out' without a bit of imagination/empathy.

I accept all that but try telling a believer that their belief is a choice. For many it's not a choice but a fundamental of their existence.

If that faith dictates that homosexual sex, for example, is wrong then the best we can hope for is that they will tolerate without interference or prejudice those indulging.

We can't dictate someone's beliefs any more than we can dictate someone's sexuality. All the time this is the case there has to be a level of tolerance in order to achieve a peaceful society.

highflyer · Oct 28, 2021

Creaky said:
I accept all that but try telling a believer that their belief is a choice. For many it's not a choice but a fundamental of their existence.

If that faith dictates that homosexual sex, for example, is wrong then the best we can hope for is that they will tolerate without interference or prejudice those indulging.

We can't dictate someone's beliefs any more than we can dictate someone's sexuality. All the time this is the case there has to be a level of tolerance in order to achieve a peaceful society.

What you describe may be true now, but what I challenge is the phrase 'best we can hope for'

I accept that faith may be fundamental to the identity of many. But unlike sexuality or ethnicity, it is possible to change your faith. More importantly it's also very possible to change the way that any faith is interpreted. I don't know of any religion that does not include some people that fully accept differences in sexuality for what it is. A simple fact and a welcome part of human diversity. It's certainly harder in some faiths, or some branches of some faiths, than others (anything based on literal interpretation of the old testaments for instance) but there's always room for interpretation!

So I believe there's always room to move beyond 'acceptance' and we should always hope for more, work for more, and expect more as our society progresses.

Tyrone Biggums · Oct 28, 2021

Creaky said:
I accept all that but try telling a believer that their belief is a choice. For many it's not a choice but a fundamental of their existence.

If that faith dictates that homosexual sex, for example, is wrong then the best we can hope for is that they will tolerate without interference or prejudice those indulging.

We can't dictate someone's beliefs any more than we can dictate someone's sexuality. All the time this is the case there has to be a level of tolerance in order to achieve a peaceful society.

Fair point.

Plenty of people with no faith find the act of butt sex totally filthy and feral. That's in regards to any sexual orientation though partaking in it.

Not all gay people do it, plenty of straight people do it.

So people really can't dictate to others what they find gross or not. Impossible to do.

Creaky · Oct 28, 2021

highflyer said:
What you describe may be true now, but what I challenge is the phrase 'best we can hope for'

I accept that faith may be fundamental to the identity of many. But unlike sexuality or ethnicity, it is possible to change your faith. More importantly it's also very possible to change the way that any faith is interpreted. I don't know of any religion that does not include some people that fully accept differences in sexuality for what it is. A simple fact and a welcome part of human diversity. It's certainly harder in some faiths, or some branches of some faiths, than others (anything based on literal interpretation of the old testaments for instance) but there's always room for interpretation!

So I believe there's always room to move beyond 'acceptance' and we should always hope for more, work for more, and expect more as our society progresses.

There's nothing in your reply that I would disagree with. The aim to achieve a society where someone's sexuality is simply a fact of life, deserving neither approval or disapproval, is admirable.

In the meantime, to use my original statement, "However it is a simple fact that many millions are neither indifferent or approving but so long as they are tolerant then quite frankly that is the best that can be hoped for"

Baldseagull · Oct 28, 2021

nickbrighton said:
why should i show tolerance to someone who looks down on me because I am gay? Cant you see what you are writing, just change your perspective, dont think about someone tolerating a gay lifestyle, change it to a black lifestyle, or jewish one, and then say those groups should tolerate racists or anti semites because well they should do

Let me be plain here- if you ONLY tolerate me being gay YOU are a homophobe , and no I will not tolerate that.
If you think being just tolerated by you is not harmful or hateful to me then you are sorely mistaken

I understand what you are saying, but unfortunately I don't think there is a better word to use than tolerant, it is certainly correct that no one should be intolerant of your sexuality. Though I don't think you have the right to tell anyone that they cannot have homophobic sensibilities, you just have the right to not be discriminated against because of it. It is not illegal to have any kind of thoughts or feelings, we might decide what right and wrong thinking is, but if that never changed over time, homosexual acts would still be illegal and you might be stuck in conversion therapy for your thoughts and feelings towards men.

Personally, I am indifferent to you or any ones sexuality, but I do find very camp men a bit irritating, however, I tolerate them. I don't think they need to change, or stop being who they are, and understand that it is me that has a problem, but what are you going to do, insist I undergo thought correction therapy, if I admit that I just don't enjoy being around camp men, but can tolerate them?

Baldseagull · Oct 28, 2021

nickbrighton said:
my definition of homophobe is simply someone who thinks less of me because I am homosexual- i kind of think that sums it up. In the same way a racist is someone who thinks less of someone because they are a different ethnicity- i dont think that would be different from your definition or would it?

i haven't said everyone should approve of every particular lifestyle, i wouldn't expect anyone to approve a racist, sex offender, criminal lifestyle, as those are a CHOICE , but I would expect everyone to approve of people being Black, Asian, Latino, gay, trans, etc because those are factual and not lifestyle choices

It seems you disagree and think being gay is a lifestyle and therefore a choice- something that others should approve or disapprove of- its not, any more than being a different ethnicity is a choice, and something for you to approve or disapprove of- what do you call someone who disapproves of a person being a different ethnicity than themselves? if you genuinely cant see that then you are part of the problem.

Hmmn, skin colour is one aspect of racism, I think it is more about a persons culture these days than colour though. My Indian neighbours hate Pakistani's, for instance, though neither had a choice in being born into hindu culture or muslim culture, they both could reject that culture and choose other religions or atheism, but it is hard to let go of where you came from completely, and all at once. I think that is where we are with homophobia in this country. We have not fully let go of the old intolerance towards homosexuality that was law in this country until 1967, and are becoming increasingly accepting, but in between, we must ask for tolerance as a minimum.

Pretty pink fairy · Oct 28, 2021

Brighton Lines said:
Needs a bit more background to the circumstances. The gay bars in Brighton are concentrated in the enclosed area during Pride thus meaning she would have had a pass.

I've not heard of anyone who isn't gay being asked to leave in recent times.

No surprise seeing you in this thread. Look forward to seeing you in the next immigrants edition.

Late night hun ?

https://youtu.be/-XNFokmDKrE

Regards
DF

Pretty pink fairy · Oct 28, 2021

nickbrighton said:
I would agree Brighton Lines, over Pride those bars a rammed, and I can NEVER recall anyone being asked to leave at anytime unless they or their group were causing an issue. Pride is no longer a gay only thing and tens of thousands of straight people get tickets for the party in James St, if she was asked to leave for being straight then why werent all the rest? There is more to her story than either she or PPF is letting on
So more details needed before this can be taken at face value

I don't know the full facts she would have been with others in the Bar she Likes a laugh some person took offence and she was asked to leave ?

Regards
DF

Eeyore · Oct 28, 2021

Pretty pink fairy said:
I don't know the full facts she would have been with others in the Bar she Likes a laugh some person took offence and she was asked to leave ?

Regards
DF

You suggested that she was asked to leave due to intolerance and linked that with her not being gay. It appears this may not have been the case but something else.

You now say you don't have the full facts- excepting that someone took offence to something.

In response to this query you respond in a juvenile way with a silly video link.

As you were.

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