[Misc] John O'Kane the autistic footballer

Harry Wilson's tackle · Oct 7, 2021

I just listened to Mr Potatoe Head (Adrian 'voodoo' Chiles) interview O'Kane who was a short-lived member of the 'class of 92'. He was a bright lad at school and confident but, in some respects, away with the fairies. Unphased by asking Fergie to play him in Phil Neville's position (Fergie said 'OK' but subbed him off after 28 minutes), he rubbed the united coaching staff up the wrong way, got loaned out, transferred to Everton and drifted out of the game while still in his 20s. He has just published an autobiography, hence his appearance on the potatoe head programme. He sounded absolutely ebullient, which made me smile.

I have managed to stay in my job but, boy, his story resonated. I wonder how many 'high functioning' people there are 'on the spectrum', leaving chaos in their wake, damaging their relationships and lives because they don't know they are on the spectrum, and nobody else realises, and they get no help?

Sheebo · Oct 7, 2021

I honestly think everyone’s ‘on the spectrum’ somewhere. 100%. I could most definitely also diagnose some friends etc as autistic myself without them knowing they are. Some stand out hugely. It’s an interesting thing to analyse - the intelligence of people ‘on the spectrum’ and memory of certain things is class.

elwheelio · Oct 8, 2021

sheebo said:
I honestly think everyone’s ‘on the spectrum’ somewhere. 100%. I could most definitely also diagnose some friends etc as autistic myself without them knowing they are. Some stand out hugely. It’s an interesting thing to analyse - the intelligence of people ‘on the spectrum’ and memory of certain things is class.

I think that's a problem in itself, that a lot of people casually diagnose others as being "on the spectrum" when they display certain behaviours.

rebel51 · Oct 8, 2021

sheebo said:
I honestly think everyone’s ‘on the spectrum’ somewhere. 100%. I could most definitely also diagnose some friends etc as autistic myself without them knowing they are. Some stand out hugely. It’s an interesting thing to analyse - the intelligence of people ‘on the spectrum’ and memory of certain things is class.

what a dumb thing to say. You really need educating, but I don't have enough energy atm.

Sheebo · Oct 8, 2021

rebel51 said:
what a dumb thing to say. You really need educating, but I don't have enough energy atm.

Sorry? How is that in any way ‘dumb’ - it’s a compassionate and physiologically-interested lead post no?

Sheebo · Oct 8, 2021

Mustafa said:
A bit harsh. He is probably mostly wrong, but not necessarily completely wrong.

The human brain is incredibly complex and we are still in our infancy when it comes to understanding it.

'Autism' does seem to be an umbrella term which is used to describe a range of traits which are not expressed by most people - which is why it is currently regarded to be a spectrum.

Historically, medical generalisations have been used when we don't yet understand what the disorders are. As we learn more, we will probably discover that many people that we currently have diagnosed as autistic, actually have other disorders that we are yet to define.

In fact many of the medical generalisations we have used in the past, are now deeply offensive. It is possible if not probable that 'autistic' will be an offensive term in the future for the same reasons.

Don’t get how anyone can take offence to that. I always say to people I think everyone is on ‘the spectrum’ somewhere - as in little obsessions, tics, OCD etc type behaviour - I think everyone I’ve discussed it with in REAL life has agreed and had a nice conversation about it. I really don’t get how my post is in anyway inflammatory - it certainly wasn’t intended like that…! I think tone of voice and general Internet ‘ways of reading’ things and being uptight about certain subjects is the reason for the other 2 posters odd reactions. Again, maybe it’s just my openness to offer opinions but also willingness to learn on subjects I’m no expert on - always told it was a lovely trait of mine :shrug:

rebel51 · Oct 8, 2021

sheebo said:
Don’t get how anyone can take offence to that. I always say to people I think everyone is on ‘the spectrum’ somewhere - as in little obsessions, tics, OCD etc type behaviour - I think everyone I’ve discussed it with in REAL life has agreed and had a nice conversation about it. I really don’t get how my post is in anyway inflammatory - it certainly wasn’t intended like that…! I think tone of voice and general Internet ‘ways of reading’ things and being uptight about certain subjects is the reason for the other 2 posters odd reactions. Again, maybe it’s just my openness to offer opinions but also willingness to learn on subjects I’m no expert on - always told it was a lovely trait of mine

coz I was diagnosed myself at a late age, and have studied it to the cows come home and you just cannot be a little bit autistic. You either are or your not. Other than that you are probably a nice bloke or lady.

BadFish · Oct 8, 2021

Here is an interesting article on the whole 'aren't we all a bit on the spectrum thing'.

https://autisticandunapologetic.com/2019/03/16/is-everyone-on-the-autism-spectrum/

My experiences are that this was a line peddled often a few years ago. The idea was to make everyone more included and try to make us feel sympathy for autistic people by helping others empathise with them.

The problem with it is that it kind of diminishes the challenges autistic people face by trivialising their differences. I found this personally when talking about things I go through with my kids. People say (either sympathetically or dismissively) that their kids do that too. I always felt this undermined my experiences somewhat and made me second guess said experiences. I have read and spoken to a number of people who feel the same about the 'everyone on the spectrum thing'.

I guess that technically it may be true but no-one gets a diagnosis of Autism without having a significant number of traits on the spectrum. Most often with those traits causing significant challenges for people.

My understanding is that this kind of frustration is similar to those with OCD having their experiences diminished by people who are a bit particular claiming to have OCD

rebel51 · Oct 8, 2021

BadFish said:
Here is an interesting article on the whole 'aren't we all a bit on the spectrum thing'.

https://autisticandunapologetic.com/2019/03/16/is-everyone-on-the-autism-spectrum/

My experiences are that this was a line peddled often a few years ago. The idea was to make everyone more included and try to make us feel sympathy for autistic people by helping others empathise with them.

The problem with it is that it kind of diminishes the challenges autistic people face by trivialising their differences. I found this personally when talking about things I go through with my kids. People say (either sympathetically or dismissively) that their kids do that too. I always felt this undermined my experiences somewhat and made me second guess said experiences. I have read and spoken to a number of people who feel the same about the 'everyone on the spectrum thing'.

I guess that technically it may be true but no-one gets a diagnosis of Autism without having a significant number of traits on the spectrum. Most often with those traits causing significant challenges for people.

My understanding is that this kind of frustration is similar to those with OCD having their experiences diminished by people who are a bit particular claiming to have OCD

best post ever on here. Take a bow sir

Sheebo · Oct 8, 2021

rebel51 said:
coz I was diagnosed myself at a late age, and have studied it to the cows come home and you just cannot be a little bit autistic. You either are or your not. Other than that you are probably a nice bloke or lady.

Look that’s cool man I didn’t mean it like that and I’m certainly not in any way clued up on the subject as you. I honestly didn’t mean any offence by that - it was actually me trying to say ‘we’re all different’! Point is, the spectrum never existed, so it’s technically an opinion in itself if you wanted to go deep, deep… but appreciate it’s the spectrum we have to use as it’s the one implemented etc. I love talking to kids with learning difficulties or Aspergers etc - I find them endearing - did it just the other day and had a huge smile on my face listening to them…!

Swansman · Oct 8, 2021

sheebo said:
I honestly think everyone’s ‘on the spectrum’ somewhere. 100%. I could most definitely also diagnose some friends etc as autistic myself without them knowing they are. Some stand out hugely. It’s an interesting thing to analyse - the intelligence of people ‘on the spectrum’ and memory of certain things is class.

Not quite sure that "everyone is on the spectrum". If we all were, would there be a spectrum? Philosophical question without any real answer I guess.

But its certainly a lot of people saying that they or someone else are, which is interesting and sort of the same as with ADHD and similar.

Probably for one of two reasons:
1) its not a taboo disorder/trait (depending on how you see it). Freud said something about it being an "exaggeration of the male intelligence" which is perhaps not a bad description. Men are to higher extent able to do things like locking themselves up for 40 years to design some bridge or water tower or go antisocial levels of deep into certain subjects and this has historically been seen as quite useful rather than ****ed up, making the autism spectra a lot more desired than a lot of other issues/traits.

2. There is some not yet found external cause as it seems logical the prevalency has increased over the last few hundred years or so. Diet perhaps or some chemical - who knows. Just a theory obviously but I struggle to see it being a viable way of being back when you preferably had to be a bit allround to survive as there was less of a system to compensate when you forgot to chase that meaty deer just because you had to make finishing touches on that bark boat.

rebel51 · Oct 8, 2021

sheebo said:
Look that’s cool man I didn’t mean it like that and I’m certainly not in any way clued up on the subject as you. I honestly didn’t mean any offence by that - it was actually me trying to say ‘we’re all different’! Point is, the spectrum never existed, so it’s technically an opinion in itself if you wanted to go deep, deep… but appreciate it’s the spectrum we have to use as it’s the one implemented etc. I love talking to kids with learning difficulties or Aspergers etc - I find them endearing - did it just the other day and had a huge smile on my face listening to them…!

no worries pal. Thanking for good reply. Back to the albion matters lol.

BadFish · Oct 8, 2021

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I just listened to Mr Potatoe Head (Adrian 'voodoo' Chiles) interview O'Kane who was a short-lived member of the 'class of 92'. He was a bright lad at school and confident but, in some respects, away with the fairies. Unphased by asking Fergie to play him in Phil Neville's position (Fergie said 'OK' but subbed him off after 28 minutes), he rubbed the united coaching staff up the wrong way, got loaned out, transferred to Everton and drifted out of the game while still in his 20s. He has just published an autobiography, hence his appearance on the potatoe head programme. He sounded absolutely ebullient, which made me smile.

I have managed to stay in my job but, boy, his story resonated. I wonder how many 'high functioning' people there are 'on the spectrum', leaving chaos in their wake, damaging their relationships and lives because they don't know they are on the spectrum, and nobody else realises, and they get no help?

The book sounds really interesting. I will order a copy and have a read. My son is autistic and played football for many years (with me coaching and my wife or his mentor on hand for support). Eventually, he found the group dynamics and culture (banter etc) too much. In his last couple of years our technical director was trying to encourage him to take up coaching because of the way he saw and read the game. He told me that my boy was always in the right place to receive the ball/continue the play and the rest of the team needed to use him more. He saw the game in a very mathematical and scientific way. We were doing some coaching with a group that does football for kids on the spectrum and were planning to take a U12 team at our club before Covid hit. Sadly I don't think that he will get back now as it has been too long and his love for football is diminishing.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Oct 8, 2021

sheebo said:
I honestly think everyone’s ‘on the spectrum’ somewhere. 100%. I could most definitely also diagnose some friends etc as autistic myself without them knowing they are. Some stand out hugely. It’s an interesting thing to analyse - the intelligence of people ‘on the spectrum’ and memory of certain things is class.

If you define the spectrum as being from 0 to 100% then sure. Likewise we are all on a sexual preference spectrum. However, most people are on the end of the spectrum that is 'not remotely' symptomatic. Likewise, on the sexuality spectrum you could be gay, or you could be so 'not gay' you are effectively homophobic, and the two are not the same.

So the people who are 'on the spectrum' are those who have identifiable chatacteristics and behaviours that can be mild or extreme. Most people have none of these characteristics. There are some online tests that are quite good (you have to respond to the questions quickly and not reply with what yu think are the right answers) if you're curious.

The challenge is that those of us who have certain identifiable behavious and characteristics, and are also largely functional, have learned how to be socialble (we have to learn) tend to be labled as 'unpredictable and 'eccentric' or 'provocative' or 'pedantic' or 'needlessly argumentative' and certainly 'awkward'. The outcome is that we miss out on lots of things, and are often shunned. That footballer was really good at football but because nobody realised there were issues (including the bloke himself) he dropped out of the game.

Chris Packham is a good example of a high functional sufferer. His story about the egg he illegally stole from a nest and the bird he reared and lost is sad, bizarre and in some respects shocking; and he relives his loss every day. That's the sort of agony some of us suffer over things others wouldn't even touch let alone understand.

So, no, we are not all 'on the spectrum'.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Oct 8, 2021

BadFish said:
Here is an interesting article on the whole 'aren't we all a bit on the spectrum thing'.

https://autisticandunapologetic.com/2019/03/16/is-everyone-on-the-autism-spectrum/

My experiences are that this was a line peddled often a few years ago. The idea was to make everyone more included and try to make us feel sympathy for autistic people by helping others empathise with them.

The problem with it is that it kind of diminishes the challenges autistic people face by trivialising their differences. I found this personally when talking about things I go through with my kids. People say (either sympathetically or dismissively) that their kids do that too. I always felt this undermined my experiences somewhat and made me second guess said experiences. I have read and spoken to a number of people who feel the same about the 'everyone on the spectrum thing'.

I guess that technically it may be true but no-one gets a diagnosis of Autism without having a significant number of traits on the spectrum. Most often with those traits causing significant challenges for people.

My understanding is that this kind of frustration is similar to those with OCD having their experiences diminished by people who are a bit particular claiming to have OCD

Someone close to me suffers from OCD. I can attest that it causes great anger when people who like to do certain trivial things 'just so' (like leaving the teabags in the pot exactly 3 minutes) claim it is because they are 'a bit OCD'. I have seen people very close to getting a slap from a certain person over this. Not me I hasten to add (neither slappee nor, er, slapper).

Harry Wilson's tackle · Oct 8, 2021

BadFish said:
The book sounds really interesting. I will order a copy and have a read. My son is autistic and played football for many years (with me coaching and my wife or his mentor on hand for support). Eventually, he found the group dynamics and culture (banter etc) too much. In his last couple of years our technical director was trying to encourage him to take up coaching because of the way he saw and read the game. He told me that my boy was always in the right place to receive the ball/continue the play and the rest of the team needed to use him more. He saw the game in a very mathematical and scientific way. We were doing some coaching with a group that does football for kids on the spectrum and were planning to take a U12 team at our club before Covid hit. Sadly I don't think that he will get back now as it has been too long and his love for football is diminishing.

Good luck with that. I am hoping that things will improve in society over the recognition and help for people with 'marginal' mental health issues. Another condition, ADHD, is now much more recognised, albeit the provision in the school system to help kids, in our experience, isn't great. Hopefully it will improve.

BadFish · Oct 8, 2021

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Good luck with that. I am hoping that things will improve in society over the recognition and help for people with 'marginal' mental health issues. Another condition, ADHD, is now much more recognised, albeit the provision in the school system to help kids, in our experience, isn't great. Hopefully it will improve.

I have just finished my application for a post-grad Autism Studies course. I am looking at taking a years leave without pay next year to move out of classroom teaching and in to something to improve for people/kids with autism. My feeling is that we have a long way to go in Australia in terms of education for people on the spectrum. I feel the same about ADHD (my youngest and oldest both have this to varying degrees). I speak to teachers on a daily basis who have no idea about the parameters of ADHD and the problems it can cause. Add into this, things like Sensory Processing Disorder, Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria and Pathological Demand Avoidance and we are really limited in our understanding of the challenges some kids go through. 'can't concentrate, give them a pill' seems to me to be a really underwhelming and tokenistic method of helping children with plenty of potential.

SimpKingpin · Oct 8, 2021

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I just listened to Mr Potatoe Head (Adrian 'voodoo' Chiles) interview O'Kane who was a short-lived member of the 'class of 92'. He was a bright lad at school and confident but, in some respects, away with the fairies. Unphased by asking Fergie to play him in Phil Neville's position (Fergie said 'OK' but subbed him off after 28 minutes), he rubbed the united coaching staff up the wrong way, got loaned out, transferred to Everton and drifted out of the game while still in his 20s. He has just published an autobiography, hence his appearance on the potatoe head programme. He sounded absolutely ebullient, which made me smile.

I have managed to stay in my job but, boy, his story resonated. I wonder how many 'high functioning' people there are 'on the spectrum', leaving chaos in their wake, damaging their relationships and lives because they don't know they are on the spectrum, and nobody else realises, and they get no help?

My Dad has an autistic son (from his third marriage), my youngest brother.

In the process of studying up on Autism and living with it, he realised that he is also more than likely considered autistic, or at least on the spectrum (my Dad, I mean - if that wasn't clear).

From my lifetime observations of my father I would say it is there, although fairly mild.

For what it's worth, the fact that he recognises it seems to have helped with his understanding of himself and the world around him.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Oct 8, 2021

SimpKingpin said:
My Dad has an autistic son (from his third marriage), my youngest brother.

In the process of studying up on Autism and living with it, he realised that he is also more than likely considered autistic, or at least on the spectrum (my Dad, I mean - if that wasn't clear).

From my lifetime observations of my father I would say it is there, although fairly mild.

For what it's worth, the fact that he recognises it seems to have helped with his understanding of himself and the world around him.

Indeed.

My dad was obviously autistic. But none of us knew. I know now only because I now know about myself, and it was only after Mrs T's prompting, when I was 62, that I looked into it. My two brothers are also affected (differently, but undoubtedly). I have tried to discuss it with them but they absolutely won't engage. I myself refused to think about it for 6 months after the realisation (I have not been 'formally' diagnosed - but there is no need; it is unequivocal). You have to engage with it on your own terms, I think, which is why I have given up talking to my brothers about it, and them.

Having awareness does, I think, help. However, initially I treated it as a licence to be a dick. I freak out over odd things, like having possessions moved and having things put in front of other things, and I'm extremely peculiar about doing the washing up, and any sort of planning, and I did wind up Mrs T for a while. Well....I still do. But less so. And no longer deliberately. That was very naughty of me.

One thing I had to admit is that I enjoy being a dick and ranting and raving. Endorphins. But it isn't a good look. Crikey, I have had to apologise to numerous people on NSC for being a dick....

I think the old man was the same. He could have a ranty monologue for 30 minutes while the rest of us left the room or sat there with one eyebrow raised. He was talking to himself really. I still have a snip of a recording I made of one of his rants, a recording that will be 50 years old next year.

Anyway, that will do I think. If anyone reads this and thinks....hmmm, that's me that is, get a diagnosis and some help - your loved ones will appreciate it, even if it doesn't make a huge amount of difference to you (that's another thing - for me and some others including one of my students, it is a gift that gives effortless creativity, occasional startling insights and, lets face it, can make us a little bit fascinating in the eyes of some; my experience of a social gathering typically is that after several conversations I quickly find I am the only person in the room not in conversation and yet on occasions someone (normally someone 'odd') will single me out and a great adventure will begin).

Uh_huh_him · Oct 8, 2021

sheebo said:
Look that’s cool man I didn’t mean it like that and I’m certainly not in any way clued up on the subject as you. I honestly didn’t mean any offence by that - it was actually me trying to say ‘we’re all different’! Point is, the spectrum never existed, so it’s technically an opinion in itself if you wanted to go deep, deep… but appreciate it’s the spectrum we have to use as it’s the one implemented etc. I love talking to kids with learning difficulties or Aspergers etc - I find them endearing - did it just the other day and had a huge smile on my face listening to them…!

My boy was diagnosed at 2 and is high functioning/Aspergers, now 20.

I have often considered myself to be "on the spectrum" .
I am by nature introverted and have anxiety over social situations, even with people I know very well.
In my youth I frequently said the wrong thing and can be perceived as "a bit weird".
I have learnt how to socialise, over the years and have always been more popular with others, than I feel I had any right to be.

I have always had close relationships with my significant others over the years and have no problem with empathising with others.
This marks me out as "not autistic", i.e. not in anyway disadvantaged, by the way my brain works.
But I know I am different and both of my children have larger issues than I had in this area.

Importantly society is becoming much more aware of the condition and the old adage of "1 in 100 people are autistic" would seem to be massively off.
I would say that a much higher percentage of men are "on the spectrum" than the stats would have us believe.
Probably too much of a jump to say we are all on the spectrum, but it wouldn''t surprise me to be told that 20% of men are.

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[Misc] John O'Kane the autistic footballer

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