[Albion] Playing out from the back

Skaville · Oct 2, 2021

Before I start, I’m not a football philistine. My son is a centre half and I have spent years instilling a need for him to look to play the ball out to feet wherever possible. However, we really struggled to beat the press the other night.

Last season we had White, Dunk and Webster, three exceptional footballers who are very comfortable on the ball. Burn and Duffy just aren’t on that level and a better team than Palace would have punished us. When you then add a lack of Bissouma to receive the ball it feels like an accident waiting to happen. Do we need to adapt our playing style until Webster is back?

Is it PotG? · Oct 2, 2021

Going to be a tad dicey with 40mph winds today.

HOOF IT.

Bakero · Oct 2, 2021

Maybe Veltman and Dunk either side of Duffy is. Better bet. Lamps or March at rwb.

Change at Barnham · Oct 2, 2021

We've now got Cucurella in the ranks and he's as good as anyone at playing out from the back.

Sanchez, Veltman, Dunk, Cucurella, March, Groß = very good.
Duffy, Burn = good.

Keep the faith.

Dick Swiveller · Oct 2, 2021

Skaville said:
Before I start, I’m not a football philistine. My son is a centre half and I have spent years instilling a need for him to look to play the ball out to feet wherever possible. However, we really struggled to beat the press the other night.

Last season we had White, Dunk and Webster, three exceptional footballers who are very comfortable on the ball. Burn and Duffy just aren’t on that level and a better team than Palace would have punished us. When you then add a lack of Bissouma to receive the ball it feels like an accident waiting to happen. Do we need to adapt our playing style until Webster is back?

Don't think it had much to do with the players and everything to do with the fact that Palace pressed very well. When teams come and just press with their strikers, we cut through them with ease. We really struggle when they press as a team and close down all of the midfield options. On the upside, a lot of teams either don't do it properly or think they are too good to bother to to it against lowly Brighton and we get a lot of success.

Skaville · Oct 2, 2021

Skaville said:
Before I start, I’m not a football philistine. My son is a centre half and I have spent years instilling a need for him to look to play the ball out to feet wherever possible.

Thought I should point out that he might only be 13 but he knows never to let it bounce :lolol:

Skaville · Oct 2, 2021

Dick Swiveller said:
Don't think it had much to do with the players and everything to do with the fact that Palace pressed very well. When teams come and just press with their strikers, we cut through them with ease. We really struggle when they press as a team and close down all of the midfield options. On the upside, a lot of teams either don't do it properly or think they are too good to bother to to it against lowly Brighton and we get a lot of success.

I totally agree that we get success. Love it as a tactic. I’m just not as comfortable with the back five on Monday and Gross and Lallana in the middle who are both less dexterous than Biss when receiving under pressure

junior · Oct 2, 2021

Do you think I'd we didn't do it we'd be in a better position than we are now?

prawnsarnies · Oct 2, 2021

I thought the reason we appeared to struggle is that Biss was missing, normally we have Biss and Lallana to play into from the back, all we had was Lallana and he was closed down which didn't give us so many options.

B-right-on · Oct 2, 2021

I agree, Burn and Duffy aren't as good as White and Webster are at the ball playing. We missed that and Biss vs Palarse and we allowed them to press us without being able to play around the press which we normally do. Burn and Duffers not up to it.

Plus Lallana and Gross in the middle aren't quick so that added to it.

I'd like to see Moder and Mac Argie in the middle with Lallana if Webster, Biss and Welbz are out.

Skaville · Oct 2, 2021

junior said:
Do you think I'd we didn't do it we'd be in a better position than we are now?

No. But right now we don’t have Webster or Biss, White has been sold, Veltman was on the right on Monday and Lallana and Gross are not exactly mobile.

If Burnley swapped Wood and Barnes for two strikers of Connolly and Maupay’s stature should they still keep banging in crosses in the air?

Hugo Rune · Oct 2, 2021

Skaville said:
Before I start, I’m not a football philistine. My son is a centre half and I have spent years instilling a need for him to look to play the ball out to feet wherever possible. However, we really struggled to beat the press the other night.

Last season we had White, Dunk and Webster, three exceptional footballers who are very comfortable on the ball. Burn and Duffy just aren’t on that level and a better team than Palace would have punished us. When you then add a lack of Bissouma to receive the ball it feels like an accident waiting to happen. Do we need to adapt our playing style until Webster is back?

If we want to play out from the back a lot, I’d have:

Veltman——Dunk——Burn

If everyone is fit, Webster comes in for Burn for me. I think Burn is better at playing out from the back than Duffy but not as good as our other 3 centra half’s (or Roberts for that matter).

Never underestimate Joel Veltman. I’d love him to start at RCB with Lamptey at RWB.

Swansman · Oct 2, 2021

Last year there was the Flo pass to BDB option, but doubt we will see much of that now with Cucu in the team.

Hoofing it to Maupay or Trossard is pretty much just giving the ball away. In the last couple of games the team was still forced to do it in some periods but it will go from difficult to impossible with Welbeck out.

Also whenever you manage to pass between the lines of a high pressure like that and you're able to eg Lallana or Trossard turned against the opposition goal and you are playing vs 6 or 7 of their players behind the ball rather than 10 or 11, it makes it a lot easier to create chances.

When you teach a defensive or central midfielder to play in a system that builds from the back, you usually teach them that the first two or three passes they recieve, they should usually pass it straight back to the defender because the opposing midfield will be all up in their arse for the first twenty minutes or so. Once you've made the easy pass back to your defender a few times, nine out of ten opponents wont bother to engage in that type of pressure anymore and you can just turn with the ball instead.

The same principle goes for playing out from the back. The first twenty minutes or so, the opponent is going to be all over you if they've decided to go with high pressure. Once their brains realise that "yeah I'm not going to be able to do this for 90 minutes" and your own players see the pattern in their pressure and succeed frequently often with that build-up, it will get less and less dangerous as the game moves on. But you usually have to go through that rough patch - if you hoof it for the first twenty minutes, they will still have the energy and belief once you go playing it out from the back.

Variation is obviously good though. Sometimes during relentless pressure you just need a few minutes where you hoof it and hope to win the second balls, since your defenders need a breather.

A1X · Oct 2, 2021

Sometimes the best option is just to hoof it away. I do feel sometimes we are too reluctant to do that when the situation arises.

Machiavelli · Oct 2, 2021

Skaville said:
I totally agree that we get success. Love it as a tactic. I’m just not as comfortable with the back five on Monday and Gross and Lallana in the middle who are both less dexterous than Biss when receiving under pressure

In answer to your initial question, it's not just Webster, although to embellish [MENTION=20746]Change at Barnham[/MENTION]'s list, he's arguably the best at it, because he can pass and carry.
The problem on Monday was the whole package, especially having the very slow duo of Lallana and Gross in CM. I know it's not popular on here, but Duffy is poor on the ball, and oppositions have cottoned on to it: they let him have the ball, and prime their players to press the player he's passing to.
Good thread though.

WATFORD zero · Oct 2, 2021

Machiavelli said:
In answer to your initial question, it's not just Webster, although to embellish [MENTION=20746]Change at Barnham[/MENTION]'s list, he's arguably the best at it, because he can pass and carry.
The problem on Monday was the whole package, especially having the very slow duo of Lallana and Gross in CM. I know it's not popular on here, but Duffy is poor on the ball, and oppositions have cottoned on to it: they let him have the ball, and prime their players to press the player he's passing to.
Good thread though.

I don't think the oppo have cottoned on to Duffy, I think it's widely known what his weakness is. However, this season in the middle of the three, he has been drilled to play two touch, control and pass out to the other two CBs. I think he missed Biss against Palace, because that is his preferred (or drilled) third pass, Sanchez 4th.

I think it's because he is moving it on so quickly that he is looking so good. However, I do think Biss is very important to that and that Lallana and Pascal don't do that option as well. Biss making space to receive is as important as Webster's ability to carry and missing both those aspects effect us.

We tend to play the weakest CB on the ball in the centre role and last season that was Dunk, playing to White and Webster's strengths.

studio150 · Oct 2, 2021

Skaville said:
No. But right now we don’t have Webster or Biss, White has been sold, Veltman was on the right on Monday and Lallana and Gross are not exactly mobile.

If Burnley swapped Wood and Barnes for two strikers of Connolly and Maupay’s stature should they still keep banging in crosses in the air?

Yes they would, it's the only tactic Dyche knows.

boik · Oct 2, 2021

It seems to me that we have 4 methods of playing out from the back when everyone is fit.

Short ball to Biss who is brilliant at receiving under pressure, turning and breaking the lines.

Short ball to Webster, who, if everyone is marked is more than capable of surging through the spaces.

Longish ball our right to see if we can get Lamptey one on one around the half way line.

Even longer ball out wide left to Welbeck, or in the past, BDB.

On Monday,3 of those options were missing and we definitely seemed to struggle to make forward progress when Palace were pressing. We improved when we added an extra midfielder and Palace tired.

Happy with playing out from the back when we have the players available.

Couldn't Be Hyypia · Oct 2, 2021

I think Duffy is a weak passer of the ball (relatively). We play slightly deeper when he is playing. All of this invites pressure and Palarse pressed well. Get Webster back or free up Veltman with Lamptey coming back at RB and we'll be fine. I know people are singing Duffy's praises, and he is good in the air and at corners, but we've had a lot of pressure at the back whilst he's been in the team.

Tom Hark Preston Park · Oct 2, 2021

Think our rookie manager has finally grown out of that dicking-around-at-the-back thing. Same as he's finally grown out of that two-man-corner thing. Shameful that either of those things was ever an EPL manager thing in the first place tho eh?

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