[News] A lorry drivers view of driver shortage, fuel shortage and Brexit.

Guy Fawkes · Sep 25, 2021

WATFORD zero said:
Nobody has said it's all down to Brexit, but if Brexit wasn't a significant factor, why the f*** would the government do this ?

Petrol driver shortage: Visa scheme planned to ease problems

Ministers are working on plans for a temporary visa scheme to make it easier for foreign lorry drivers to come to the UK. Final details of exactly how the initiative will work are expected to be announced this weekend. Any changes to immigration rules will be temporary, with a cap on the number of workers allowed to enter the UK.

The shortage of hauliers threatens more disruption to deliveries of petrol, food and other goods. It is estimated that the UK is short of about 100,000 HGV drivers - with existing shortages made worse by the pandemic and Brexit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58670792

Why wouldn't they?
Brexit doesn't mean we can't chop and change our visa system and change our priorities for immigration

Immigration into the UK isn't exclusive to our being in the EU. Having left, there is now more flexibility on who and when visas are given rather than unlimited free movement that we had with EU membership. If that helps the poorer members of our society, leading to better wages for them and in turn a better quality of life for them, then should people be claiming it's a disaster and a mistake for leaving with no possible upside for anyone?

maltaseagull · Sep 25, 2021

Swansman said:
Interesting to hear.

A lot of things are over-regulated and all the digital tracing makes it impossible to bend the rules in a way you see fit as an individual. Appears to be the case in a lot of professions these days.

In fairness, restricting driving hours was done for a valid reason. Road Safety.

As with many EU rules/ laws , the bureaucrats over complicate it.

Peteinblack · Sep 25, 2021

JC Footy Genius said:
I think you mean know **** all's. Its called Brexit Tourettes syndrome, lots of sufferers on here sadly.

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk

Guy Fawkes · Sep 25, 2021

Peteinblack said:
But many - most? - lorry drivers voted for Brexit (as did most of the Sun-reading English working-class generally), and so rather than admit they were mistaken, or lied to by those shameless self-serving, publicity-addicted, charlatans Johnson and Farage, they are trying to blame our current problems on other factors, like Covid.

I kind of understand, because no-one likes to admit they were wrong, or allowed themselves to be manipulated, particularly when the disastrous consequences are becoming clearer with every passing day..

Wage inflation in traditionally undervalued and poorly paid sectors, directly helping the poorer members of our society is a disaster?

Guy Fawkes · Sep 25, 2021

Peteinblack said:
But many - most? - lorry drivers voted for Brexit (as did most of the Sun-reading English working-class generally), and so rather than admit they were mistaken, or lied to by those shameless self-serving, publicity-addicted, charlatans Johnson and Farage, they are trying to blame our current problems on other factors, like Covid.

I kind of understand, because no-one likes to admit they were wrong, or allowed themselves to be manipulated, particularly when the disastrous consequences are becoming clearer with every passing day..

Wage inflation in traditionally undervalued and poorly paid sectors, directly helping the poorer members of our society is a disaster?

Trouble is too many only think about themselves and how they are affected and therefore only evaluate things as they see it rather than even begin to consider how other are affected, remainers tend to be fairly comfortable financially, don't work in manual or lower skilled work, and are therefore less likely to have been adversely affected by things that EU membership brought, like free movement of labour reducing wage inflation in those poorly paid sectors. (supply and demand of labour and the effect on wages)

Originunknown · Sep 25, 2021

There are driver shortages across Europe in EU member states and non-EU member states before and after Brexit.

Brexit has made it harder for some non-EU nationals to enter the country to work in many industries, including HGV driving.

There would still be a driver shortage had we still been an EU member state but not quite the same shortfall. We've heard first hand accounts, why drive an HGV in the UK?

Thunder Bolt · Sep 25, 2021

Guy Fawkes said:
So wage inflation in the sector for an area that is traditionally undervalued by our society is a bad thing then??

One solution is for them to pay better wages to attract workers into the sector, (or other traditionally poorly paid and undervalued sectors, like the care homes, or hospitality, or fruit picking, etc) which will help those who are more likely to struggle to make ends meet and need to rely on food banks, statutory minimum wage / living wage legislation

Part of the problem with better wages is the cost is always passed on to the customer which raises the cost of living, causing inflation.

Neville's Breakfast · Sep 25, 2021

Thunder Bolt said:
Part of the problem with better wages is the cost is always passed on to the customer which raises the cost of living, causing inflation.

Yes, but in some ways that means us as consumers are exploiting the low paid so we can buy cheap stuff. I am not sure this is acceptable anymore.

Peteinblack · Sep 25, 2021

Guy Fawkes said:
Wage inflation in traditionally undervalued and poorly paid sectors, directly helping the poorer members of our society is a disaster?

I'm not saying that; you're trying to twist what I said for your own purposes. There are two separate issues here.

We've been told for years by would-be British workers that EU migrants were 'taking our jobs' - so if that was the case, and those EU migrants have gone home, then those British workers should be filling those vacancies.

If, on the other hand, they are now saying that the wages are too low, that is an entirely different reason for the vacancies to "immigrants are coming over here and taking our jobs".

As to accusing me of claiming that "helping the poorer members of our society is a disaster", I've spent my whole adult life being called 'a Commie ****' or 'loony Leftie' because I've always condemned poverty wages and widening inequality between bosses and workers - we have corporate CEOs on £5-6 million salaries while their front-line staff - those who actually DO the work and ultimately create the wealth - are on the minimum wage and then forced to rely on top-up benefits to survive, whereupon they are condemned by Tories and the Tory tabloids as 'welfare scroungers'.

At present, the pay-ratio in Britain (how much top bosses are paid in relation to lowest-paid workers) is 160:1 - I don't think those bosses work 160 times as hard as their workers (although of course, Tories will say "Ah, its 'the market' which determines levels of pay') - and I consider this obscene.

However: two problems a) any suggestion that we pay those at the top a bit less in order to pay more to workers is denounced as Marxist, or anti-business, and provokes warnings that firms will leave the country. b) About half of the English working class are Tories, so don't really want to change this system; they'd rather blame their poverty wages on immigrants or the EU, which means that they keep voting for parties of the Right, even when those parties crap on them.

Even that champion of 'the proletariat, Karl Marx, despaired of the conservative, reactionary, forelock-tugging, English working-class - as do I.

Thunder Bolt · Sep 25, 2021

Neville's Breakfast said:
Yes, but in some ways that means us as consumers are exploiting the low paid so we can buy cheap stuff. I am not sure this is acceptable anymore.

Neither is it acceptable to make vast profits by making the less well off pay, who can least afford it.

Oh, look we’ve given you a 1% pay rise, but car parking costs are going up, and so is NI. Net result lower wages.

Meanwhile, back on topic.

Justice · Sep 25, 2021

Thunder Bolt said:
Part of the problem with better wages is the cost is always passed on to the customer which raises the cost of living, causing inflation.

So you and your tory chums can enjoy a pay rise and the poorest of society can stay exactly where they are? Unbelievable

Thunder Bolt · Sep 25, 2021

Guy Fawkes said:
Wage inflation in traditionally undervalued and poorly paid sectors, directly helping the poorer members of our society is a disaster?

Trouble is too many only think about themselves and how they are affected and therefore only evaluate things as they see it rather than even begin to consider how other are affected, remainers tend to be fairly comfortable financially, don't work in manual or lower skilled work, and are therefore less likely to have been adversely affected by things that EU membership brought, like free movement of labour reducing wage inflation in those poorly paid sectors. (supply and demand of labour and the effect on wages)

Peteinblack · Sep 25, 2021

Thunder Bolt said:
Neither is it acceptable to make vast profits by making the less well off pay, who can least afford it.

Oh, look we’ve given you a 1% pay rise, but car parking costs are going up, and so is NI. Net result lower wages.

Meanwhile, back on topic.

Also, a 1% pay rise for someone on the minimum wage is rather less, in cash terms, than a 1% pay rise for someone on a salary of, say, £2 million.

But, yes, back to the topic.....

Horses Arse · Sep 25, 2021

goldstoneseagull said:
It all sounds incredibly bureaucratic, simplify the rules, reduce the barriers to entry, improve the conditions and pay and you will see people want to do the job. The job market is not exactly thriving for young people.

The rules seem spot on. They are there for safety. Pay the right wage and its a profession that is attractive and safe

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

Thunder Bolt · Sep 25, 2021

Justice said:
So you and your tory chums can enjoy a pay rise and the poorest of society can stay exactly where they are? Unbelievable

You’ve read that post incorrectly.
Inflation is a bad thing, and the last couple of months has seen a record rise of inflation.

I’m old enough to remember 17% mortgage interest rates.

Neville's Breakfast · Sep 25, 2021

Peteinblack said:
I'm not saying that; you're trying to twist what I said for your own purposes. There are two separate issues here.

We've been told for years by would-be British workers that EU migrants were 'taking our jobs' - so if that was the case, and those EU migrants have gone home, then those British workers should be filling those vacancies.

If, on the other hand, they are now saying that the wages are too low, that is an entirely different reason for the vacancies to "immigrants are coming over here and taking our jobs".

As to accusing me of claiming that "helping the poorer members of our society is a disaster", I've spent my whole adult life being called 'a Commie ****' or 'loony Leftie' because I've always condemned poverty wages and widening inequality between bosses and workers - we have corporate CEOs on £5-6 million salaries while their front-line staff - those who actually DO the work and ultimately create the wealth - are on the minimum wage and then forced to rely on top-up benefits to survive, whereupon they are condemned by Tories and the Tory tabloids as 'welfare scroungers'.

At present, the pay-ratio in Britain (how much top bosses are paid in relation to lowest-paid workers) is 160:1 - I don't think those bosses work 160 times as hard as their workers (although of course, Tories will say "Ah, its 'the market' which determines levels of pay') - and I consider this obscene.

However: two problems a) any suggestion that we pay those at the top a bit less in order to pay more to workers is denounced as Marxist, or anti-business, and provokes warnings that firms will leave the country. b) About half of the English working class are Tories, so don't really want to change this system; they'd rather blame their poverty wages on immigrants or the EU, which means that they keep voting for parties of the Right, even when those parties crap on them.

Even that champion of 'the proletariat, Karl Marx, despaired of the conservative, reactionary, forelock-tugging, English working-class - as do I.

It is this attitude that makes it difficult for you to understand the contrary opinion. Much easier to dismiss it with the words you have used.

Mellotron · Sep 25, 2021

Guy Fawkes said:
They were discussing this on the radio, the stat quoted was that there is a shortage of 100k drivers, we've lost 20k European drivers after Brexit, but there are 40k looking to move into the industry but can't work due to covid and the cancelation / reduction for training and testing to get those waiting into the role

Many have re-evaluated their working situation during the pandemic, some have realised that working as say, a fuel delivery tanker driver is very poorly paid for what they do and they can earn more money elsewhere and have quit and moved to work for other companies like supermarkets as drivers who pay more, or into different lines of work and left driving completely

Not that long ago the latest 'shortage' issue was beer to pubs and clubs, again deemed down to a lack of drivers and led to the usual cries of Brexit's to blame, but a combination of the the pandemic, furlough and those doing the work realising how poor they are rewarded for their efforts (for example the dray who deliver the beer barrels to the pubs having to manually move heavy barrels, and the realisation that they don't have to do this to get by, in fact they can move to another line of work, requiring far less physical work and earn more, so why stay employed as a dray?

Society has been undervaluing those that do manual work for a very long time, and rewarding those who can work a computer (when it was new then fair enough as not many could use one, but now most can) what we are now also seeing is that those in manual labour roles are moving away from manual labour as there are far better options out there and often paying more, so why stay?

It's just arrogance and a very dismissive attitude by those blaming everything on Brexit that fails to consider so many other things, such as what is happening in the jobs market and it's big upheaval caused by people reflecting on their career, their work / life balance, etc and making changes to their life to improve it and instead they'd simply like to blame one thing, something that suits their own (political) agenda

I don’t see a single person in this thread blaming it ALL on Brexit. You have created a straw man.

The point is, Brexit isn’t necessarily causing each of these problems, but it IS exacerbating almost all of them. Would things be perfect without Brexit? Of course not. Would they be better? Of course they would.

I suspect we’re basically going to slowly slink back into closer alignment with the EU via the back door (minor one off u turns) over the coming months and years, whilst never acknowledging it as an issue.

Slinking back, with a much worse deal than we had prior, and with no influence. Genius move from all concerned.

Baker lite · Sep 25, 2021

jessiejames said:
I know there are other thread concerning this, I think people need to hear from a lorry drivers perception. I do tramping in both artic and class 2 day work.
There is no fuel shortage, not enough drivers to deliver. By panic buying that will stop lorries filling up, therefore being unable to make deliveries to shops. For me not a problem £550, to fill up my truck early this morning, I now have 1 full tank and 1 that is just under 3/4 full of Derv, should get me through to wed/Thurs next week.

Why is there a driver shortage and is it to do with Brexit?
Brexit is only a small part of the problem, most UK drivers have followed in their parents footsteps in to the industry, when I started aged 21 I was doing Continental work 3 weeks on 2 weeks off, brilliant if you have no commitment. Moved to tramping, out on Sunday/Monday back home on Friday/ Saturday. Again good if u don't have a family.
The Government were warned back in 2014 that this would happen with the introduction of the drivers certificate of professional competence, (DCPC). Basically every HGV driver needed to complete 35 hours training to be able to remain in the job, and they needed to complete this every 5 years. Older drivers said Bollocks to that waited the 5 years and left. Then the Working time directive came into force (WTD). How drivers have 2 sets of driving hours to contend with, 4.5 hours driving must show 45 minutes brake, but if working more than 6 hours but less than 4.5 hours u just show 15 min brake minimum, but between 6 and 9 hours you need to take another 30 min brake as well as the 15 between 0 and 6 hours working.
Every time the lorry is moving, this is driving time, every time the lorry is stationary this is working time, so stopped in traffic or lights = working time. WTD also means that over a certain period normally 26 weeks your working time must not average more than 48 hours per week. Daily driving is a maximum of 9 hours per day however 3 days a week you can do 10 hours, rest time must be a minimum of 11 hours a day, but can be reduced to 9 hours twice a week, provided that within 3 weeks u reclaim these hours back and he weekly rest is a minimum of 45 hours. All this is recorded in your drivers digital card, if u get an infringement the fine is between £30 up to £5,000 and if vocational licence revolked. I could now tell u about Period of availability (POA) another mode on the tachograph that we are supposed to use.
So what has Brexit got to do with this? The driving and WTD and DCPC are all laws brought in by the EU, now we are out these rules are still inplace, hence why do u want to be a new driver. The eastern European drivers employed over here have a!l left, and anyone new who wants to get into the industry will need to pay up to £5,000 just to get a licence.

If you need to park up in the services it's £30 a night, and if lucky u might get a clean warm shower in them, but chances are you will get filthy showers and cold water, and that is an extra £5 cost.

The industry is over regulated and under payed for the shit u have to put up with. If you can put up with that it can be enjoyable, a way of life as I see it.

Fantastic post, measured and informative. Unlike some of the hysteria on certain other threads .
Thanks and keep on trucking [emoji1303]

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Justice · Sep 25, 2021

Thunder Bolt said:
You’ve read that post incorrectly.
Inflation is a bad thing, and the last couple of months has seen a record rise of inflation.

I’m old enough to remember 17% mortgage interest rates.

Now your worrying about all the homeowners :facepalm:

The poorest don’t own homes they barely afford to live with the out of control rental prices.

nicko31 · Sep 25, 2021

Thunder Bolt said:
View attachment 140719

Where will we ever learn?

Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊

[News] A lorry drivers view of driver shortage, fuel shortage and Brexit.

The voice of treason

Well-known member

Well-known member

The voice of treason

The voice of treason

BINFEST'ING

Silly old bat

Well-known member

Well-known member

Silly old bat

Dangerous Idiot

Silly old bat

Well-known member

Well-known member

Silly old bat

Well-known member

I've asked for soup

Banned

Dangerous Idiot

Well-known member

Share this page