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[News] A lorry drivers view of driver shortage, fuel shortage and Brexit.



N

Neville's Breakfast

Well-known member
May 1, 2016
13,423
Oxton, Birkenhead
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Wow. That was well-argued.

:facepalm:

We have had 5 years to prepare for 'now', and we have not repealed any of the laws that govern lorry drivers, and insted have temporarily dropped our new powers to prevent free movemnt of people (FFS) to allow some Eastern European to keep the country moving again - and then we are going to boot them all out on December 31. Grant Shatts (in his hat and punches it).

I can see the queue of Romanians lining up to save our nation from here . . . . .
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Didn’t we absorb EU law into UK law when we left, which was less than a year ago. I do think what hasn’t helped is having such a reactive rather than proactive Government. Supply chains should have been a priority when coming out of lockdown but ‘Freedom Day’ didn’t seem to come with any sort of ‘Foresight Day.’ It seems it never does.
 




Stat Brother

Stat Brother

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
73,870
West west west Sussex
Neville's Breakfast said:
Didn’t we absorb EU law into UK law when we left, which was less than a year ago. I do think what hasn’t helped is having such a reactive rather than proactive Government. Supply chains should have been a priority when coming out of lockdown but ‘Freedom Day’ didn’t seem to come with any sort of ‘Foresight Day.’ It seems it never does.
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You can't 'save' everyone and everything if in the next breath you say:-

'But the actual hard work needs to start now'.
 


BN9 BHA

BN9 BHA

DOCKERS
NSC Patron
Jul 14, 2013
21,694
Newhaven
C972CB9C-EB28-4DD8-B922-9739DED61E85.jpeg

:)
 


S

Since1982

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2006
1,500
Burgess Hill
Swansman said:
Why would it be nonsense?

Of course it is highly anti-democratic. If you are a nation making your own laws, each vote means more. If Sweden were not part of the EU, 10 million people - all of who had been to the country - would elect whatever idiot we want to run the country as they want. Same with the UK (but more people obviously).

Instead, as part of this ****ing union, 440 million people and the vast majority of them who really couldnt give a **** how eg Sweden is run are deciding on who will govern our country. Over 90 percent of the laws and policy changes in Sweden are decided in the EU by politicians elected by people who have never been here and dont give a **** about anything but their national issues. If 10 million people with some insight decide how Sweden is ruled, each vote matters more than if 440 million where 98% have no insight people do it. Its a very flawed system.

Yes, your Boris Johnson might be a muppet but you kind of sort of elected him. Anyone we elect is also a muppet, but he or she would still be the muppet we kind of sort of elected. Our current person in power? Ursula von der Leyen and before her some drunk bloke from a tax haven. How many Swedes voted for them to be our presidents? Well, we he have 20 people in the European Parliament and about half of them voted for hey. So 20 Swedes had a vote in who would be the president of the organisation ("made up" by 440 million, most with zero insight) making 90% of the laws and policy changes in Sweden. How is that democratic?
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You describe a representative democracy very well. We elect representatives, most of us don’t get the person we want, those representatives then appoint more senior political leaders who even less of us want and then four or five years later we do the same again. That’s how it works here and, as far as I understand, in the EU. It’s not undemocratic although it might produce leaders and outcomes you disagree with - that’s certainly true for me in the UK. Meantime the EU, despite the UK scoring the most massive political, social and economic own goal in modern times, appears to have shrugged off the Brexit impact and be pressing on with its priorities whilst in the UK we spiral downwards.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
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Oct 8, 2003
50,758
Faversham
Swansman said:
You have no arguments against what I just wrote, so I guess it was pretty well-argued yes.

My problem with the EU is that its non-democratic. My vote matters even less than it would if national elections actually mattered (but they dont since the laws are made in EU). You have no arguments against this, obviously.

Instead you are arguing how good & important EU is because it would have allowed you to have cheap work force from Eastern Europe. Well-argued.

Maybe its a different case for you as you were always closer to EU policies. You elected Thatcher who abolished the welfare state. In Sweden, the EU abolished our once very successful welfare state. "You need to have New Public Management, because the EU says so. You need to go through privatisation and sell your state assets to American and Chinese predatory capitalists because the EU says markets must be free". Its only resulted in shit, chaos and increasing gaps between classes and most of us sure didnt want that, but we could do **** all about it since we made the poor decision to move from democractic rule to EU rule.
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If everything quickly improves to better than 5 years ago then, yes, I will agree that our freedoms have made life better. A bit early to coclude that, and the early signs are not good. And we are chosing to not change EU rules too, so....

You Swedes should have grown some balls and elected a party that refused to relinquish your socialist utopia.

We all elect the governments we deserve. I think that elements of the poor arguably deserve to get their arses kicked a bit to teach them to not trust those who promise that extraordinarily disruptive change will bring them nothing but untrammeled prosperity and joy. And so it goes.
 




D

dsr-burnley

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2014
2,195
Since1982 said:
Meantime the EU, despite the UK scoring the most massive political, social and economic own goal in modern times, appears to have shrugged off the Brexit impact and be pressing on with its priorities whilst in the UK we spiral downwards.
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To be fair, the 50,000 lorry drivers we lost are 50,000 lorry drivers they gained. :wave:
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
50,758
Faversham
Since1982 said:
You describe a representative democracy very well. We elect representatives, most of us don’t get the person we want, those representatives then appoint more senior political leaders who even less of us want and then four or five years later we do the same again. That’s how it works here and, as far as I understand, in the EU. It’s not undemocratic although it might produce leaders and outcomes you disagree with - that’s certainly true for me in the UK. Meantime the EU, despite the UK scoring the most massive political, social and economic own goal in modern times, appears to have shrugged off the Brexit impact and be pressing on with its priorities whilst in the UK we spiral downwards.
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Quite.

The ultimate form of self determination is anarchy (the true meaning thereof - extreme localization, self-reliance and barter for any substances or skills missing locally, rather than wearing and Anarchy T shirt and blowing things up). A vote on everything. Humans evolved representative democracy because most of us are too busy, and insufficiently skilled or even interested to spend all our working hours planning the harvest, designing infrastructure, inventing medicines and doing all the things necessary to keep the lights on. I would certainly rather vote for some other bugger to plan it and for them to employ (via my taxes) others to enact it. The planners (visionaries) can't be distracted by the mundane. They can't be growing their own food. Division of labour based on aptitude and competition. And, hey presto, you have representative democracy. And for it to work we have to accept the will of the majority (or the majority that can be bothered to vote).

I also find it ironic that someone advocating localism is (presumably) one of the many that sneer that we in blighty still have first past the post. How can anyone criticise the EU for the delocalisation and loss of 'voice' and at the same time support a system where you rarely if ever get to direcly elect your representatives, and the coalition that likely emerges is a government that nobody actually voted for? It may or may not be more 'fair', but does it generate governments that can be bold and decisive when needed, and not simply always ploddingly consensual? Hmmm.....perhaps we should have a vote on it. A referendum, even?
 


Thunder Bolt

Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Aug 18, 2009
65,688
Beside the seaside, beside the sea




S

seaford

Active member
Feb 8, 2007
339


R

Recidivist

Active member
Apr 28, 2019
287
Worthing
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
If everything quickly improves to better than 5 years ago then, yes, I will agree that our freedoms have made life better. A bit early to coclude that, and the early signs are not good. And we are chosing to not change EU rules too, so....

You Swedes should have grown some balls and elected a party that refused to relinquish your socialist utopia.

We all elect the governments we deserve. I think that elements of the poor arguably deserve to get their arses kicked a bit to teach them to not trust those who promise that extraordinarily disruptive change will bring them nothing but untrammeled prosperity and joy. And so it goes.
Click to expand...

Last paragraph is a bit (very) harsh!? Our democratic (?) process has been developed over centuries and it’s very rare than anyone other than the political elite gets a say in its development.

Arguably Brexit (which I assume you’re referring to?) was as much a vote against our own political system and its outcomes for many parts of the country as it was against the EU. Any change is better than no change!?

Where I think the electorate scored a huge own goal years ago was voting against a form of proportional representation which I think ultimately might have resulted in a much more representative form of government than our current oscillation between just the two main parties.

Was pretty anti-Brexit myself but I can’t believe many people (pro or anti) still feel that it was worth 5 years of wrangling and division across the whole country for the (at best) modest gains in self-determination.


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jessiejames

jessiejames

Never late in a V8
Jan 20, 2009
2,710
Brighton, United Kingdom
seaford said:
Not sure if this has been posted, but another really good thread on Twitter, written from an HGV driver perspective:
https://twitter.com/infofoundationx/status/1441738825575768069
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Thanks for the link, agree with all that he has said except the breaking the law part, although some companies will try it on.

Pretty much sums up a lorry drivers job. Unfortunately Government and the media don't seem to care as they would rather listen to the RHA or Logistics UK and not the driver.
 








Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
50,758
Faversham
Recidivist said:
Last paragraph is a bit (very) harsh!? Our democratic (?) process has been developed over centuries and it’s very rare than anyone other than the political elite gets a say in its development.

Arguably Brexit (which I assume you’re referring to?) was as much a vote against our own political system and its outcomes for many parts of the country as it was against the EU. Any change is better than no change!?

Where I think the electorate scored a huge own goal years ago was voting against a form of proportional representation which I think ultimately might have resulted in a much more representative form of government than our current oscillation between just the two main parties.

Was pretty anti-Brexit myself but I can’t believe many people (pro or anti) still feel that it was worth 5 years of wrangling and division across the whole country for the (at best) modest gains in self-determination.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Tongue in cheek. A bit.

Something about the human condition is we are never satisfied, which is a good thing and the trigger for change. In the short term change may not be useful (Germany, 1930s) but we seem to learn (a bit) from our mistakes.

In some respects I welcome distuptive change because it is the enemy of complacency and inertia. But, as always, we must be careful what we wish for.

I will always be implacably against PR all the while we have FPTP, but if it comes in and works, good. If Brexit works, also, good. But, as you say, lots of wrangling for what, presently, looks like minimal gains, and not yet.

And I am not sure you can spin the Brexit vote as a vote against our current system and therefore for PR, if that's what you mean. Nice bit of politicking though :wink:
 






Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
50,758
Faversham
cunning fergus said:
Yeah, just imagine being in your local Christmas market and you catch sight of Shamima at the wheel of a bloody great artic……….ho ho ho as they would say in Germany.
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I just unblocked you out of curiosity.

Dear oh dear. That was tasteful.... :facepalm:
 


C

cunning fergus

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2009
4,748
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I just unblocked you out of curiosity.

Dear oh dear. That was tasteful.... :facepalm:
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Sorry about that Mary, you need to be careful with that sense of adventure of yours because out here in 2021 you will wear those pearls out double quick.

Have a cup of cocoa, put on strictly and slip back into your womb of censorship.
 






R

Recidivist

Active member
Apr 28, 2019
287
Worthing
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Tongue in cheek. A bit.

Something about the human condition is we are never satisfied, which is a good thing and the trigger for change. In the short term change may not be useful (Germany, 1930s) but we seem to learn (a bit) from our mistakes.

In some respects I welcome distuptive change because it is the enemy of complacency and inertia. But, as always, we must be careful what we wish for.

I will always be implacably against PR all the while we have FPTP, but if it comes in and works, good. If Brexit works, also, good. But, as you say, lots of wrangling for what, presently, looks like minimal gains, and not yet.

And I am not sure you can spin the Brexit vote as a vote against our current system and therefore for PR, if that's what you mean. Nice bit of politicking though :wink:
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Nice to know there’s at least one other pragmatist on these threads rather than the many ideologues that love pontificating from one standpoint!

Wasn’t trying to conflate PR with the Brexit vote though…….

P.S. why are you implacably opposed to PR?


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Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
50,758
Faversham
Recidivist said:
Nice to know there’s at least one other pragmatist on these threads rather than the many ideologues that love pontificating from one standpoint!

Wasn’t trying to conflate PR with the Brexit vote though…….

P.S. why are you implacably opposed to PR?


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:thumbsup:

Well, in answer to your question, and believe me I have tried, but I just can't get over the fact that Hitler and his Nazis got their few seats that allowed them a platform to get a foothold in the Reichstag due to the generosity of PR. :shrug:
 


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