[News] A lorry drivers view of driver shortage, fuel shortage and Brexit.

Berty23 · Sep 25, 2021

Guy Fawkes said:
Short term pain for long term gain?

Poorer members of our society who are in lower skilled jobs seeing higher wages as a result in the change to the amount of labour that can be supplied

Or are you only considering the situation of those who far fairly comfortably well off, and only how they are and will be affected by Brexit?

There are always going to be winners and losers with whatever the outcome was, and had we stayed, the losers would (a pretty strong case can be made in support for it) have been the poorer in our society who have seen the wage suppression in lower skilled jobs (and therefore are those most likely to have supported Brexit)

Those still arguing against it, (Brexit) claiming it to be a disaster are clearly not from that pool of low skilled labour this country has, whose views and voices they chose to ignore for a very long time before the referendum, seeing as the things they were saying didn't directly affect themselves so they didn't try to empathise, but were instead extremely dismissive, denouncing their views as racist, etc rather than spending any time trying to understand their side of things, how they were being affected and taking action to help them rather than just arrogantly mocking them

But the issue with this is that will we see wage increases which are not at least matched by inflation? The way society has worked for ages is that if the wages of the low skilled increase then everyone higher up the skill scale would expect their wages to increase too. This is why there is such a debate about correct level of minimum wage and living wage etc. Will people who are in skilled jobs just above the cost of living wage accept people with low skills earning just about as much as them or will they in turn demand higher wages to keep the differential? I would suggest it will be the latter. This will cause more inflation. This is why so many tories were against the minimum wage. I am not a modeller to calculate all of this impact but it is highly likely to happen.

The point which makes your point slightly tricky to square is that area with lowest levels of immigration from EU were more likely to vote leave - places like Hartlepool. Were their wages being suppressed by immigrants in London? Obviously a few outliers with places like Boston but there was a negative correlation between EU migration and brexit voting. With this being the case it means that there is no reason to think that the wages of those in areas with few immigrants will see wages increase when immigrants leave other areas. The issue is that during the brexit debate immigrants were classed as a group without making the distinction between eu and non Eu migrants. This was a calculation by leave because it was obviously a vote winner.

So now we have a government who poorer brexit voters feel they have to support but are making the cut to UC and hiking NI (which is a tax rise hitting the poor relatively more than increasing income tax). My hunch is that the decision to remove 20 quid from someone’s weekly income is made by people who could do that easily so can’t compute that for some people that is a crucial amount of money. Time will tell if this is the straw that breaks the camel’s back. Did you see the tape the other week of gove saying about how the tories can play politics with the poor and utilise their vote?

Harry Wilson's tackle · Sep 25, 2021

Neville's Breakfast said:
Whether or not Brexit has been a good thing is a different debate though. Different people weight issues differently. As mentioned, if this is a part of a societal adjustment to not relying on cheap foreign labour then it can be viewed as short term pain for long term gain. Simply using this subject as ammunition in extending the Brexit debate misses the big picture. Personally I would like the opportunity to vote for a left of centre Government that embraces Brexit but I am denied that opportunity. So we go round and round in circles with people constantly trying to justify a vote they made five years ago. The lorry driver topic is merely the latest.

Fair enough.

Hasn't Starmer embraced Brexit now, though? He won't attempt to reverse it, surely?

Althpugh perhaps you don't regard Starmer as left of centre. One of my brothers thinks he's just tory lite. :ohmy:

Funny old world :thumbsup:

Kinky Gerbil · Sep 25, 2021

jessiejames said:
I know there are other thread concerning this, I think people need to hear from a lorry drivers perception. I do tramping in both artic and class 2 day work.
There is no fuel shortage, not enough drivers to deliver. By panic buying that will stop lorries filling up, therefore being unable to make deliveries to shops. For me not a problem £550, to fill up my truck early this morning, I now have 1 full tank and 1 that is just under 3/4 full of Derv, should get me through to wed/Thurs next week.

Why is there a driver shortage and is it to do with Brexit?
Brexit is only a small part of the problem, most UK drivers have followed in their parents footsteps in to the industry, when I started aged 21 I was doing Continental work 3 weeks on 2 weeks off, brilliant if you have no commitment. Moved to tramping, out on Sunday/Monday back home on Friday/ Saturday. Again good if u don't have a family.
The Government were warned back in 2014 that this would happen with the introduction of the drivers certificate of professional competence, (DCPC). Basically every HGV driver needed to complete 35 hours training to be able to remain in the job, and they needed to complete this every 5 years. Older drivers said Bollocks to that waited the 5 years and left. Then the Working time directive came into force (WTD). How drivers have 2 sets of driving hours to contend with, 4.5 hours driving must show 45 minutes brake, but if working more than 6 hours but less than 4.5 hours u just show 15 min brake minimum, but between 6 and 9 hours you need to take another 30 min brake as well as the 15 between 0 and 6 hours working.
Every time the lorry is moving, this is driving time, every time the lorry is stationary this is working time, so stopped in traffic or lights = working time. WTD also means that over a certain period normally 26 weeks your working time must not average more than 48 hours per week. Daily driving is a maximum of 9 hours per day however 3 days a week you can do 10 hours, rest time must be a minimum of 11 hours a day, but can be reduced to 9 hours twice a week, provided that within 3 weeks u reclaim these hours back and he weekly rest is a minimum of 45 hours. All this is recorded in your drivers digital card, if u get an infringement the fine is between £30 up to £5,000 and if vocational licence revolked. I could now tell u about Period of availability (POA) another mode on the tachograph that we are supposed to use.
So what has Brexit got to do with this? The driving and WTD and DCPC are all laws brought in by the EU, now we are out these rules are still inplace, hence why do u want to be a new driver. The eastern European drivers employed over here have a!l left, and anyone new who wants to get into the industry will need to pay up to £5,000 just to get a licence.

If you need to park up in the services it's £30 a night, and if lucky u might get a clean warm shower in them, but chances are you will get filthy showers and cold water, and that is an extra £5 cost.

The industry is over regulated and under payed for the shit u have to put up with. If you can put up with that it can be enjoyable, a way of life as I see it.

Thanks for this, put it better than I could in the Brexit thread - They had a driver on the radio saying they paid £70 a month to join a gym chain just to get a shower when needed

Thunder Bolt · Sep 25, 2021

JC Footy Genius said:
Many thanks for posting that article from the Lorry driver where he listed all the problems his industry has faced including cheap Eastern European Labour suppressing wages making it a less desirable occupation.

I suggest you reread it and learn how to do comprehension.
It included details of how drivers in Europe could park easily and had decent facilities for truck drivers, and access to town centres for loading etc.

Cherry picking for point scoring does you no favours.

Guinness Boy · Sep 25, 2021

Mellotron said:
I don’t see a single person in this thread blaming it ALL on Brexit. You have created a straw man.

The point is, Brexit isn’t necessarily causing each of these problems, but it IS exacerbating almost all of them. Would things be perfect without Brexit? Of course not. Would they be better? Of course they would.

I suspect we’re basically going to slowly slink back into closer alignment with the EU via the back door (minor one off u turns) over the coming months and years, whilst never acknowledging it as an issue.

Slinking back, with a much worse deal than we had prior, and with no influence. Genius move from all concerned.

Agreed.

The other point is that all of these problems are not only being exacerbated by Brexit but they are being "dealt with" by a bumbling buffoon who's done more U turns than Mr Magoo driving round Milton Keynes and may be the singularly least qualified person in the entire country to fix nuanced problems that require proper attention to detail and a firm course.

And the reason? Because he had a catch phrase. And that catch phrase was "get Brexit done". And that seems to have been more important to the great British public than having a properly functional Health Service, a decent education system, fresh food, petrol, planning laws that actually made sense and well funded local government.

:facepalm:

Baker lite · Sep 25, 2021

Guinness Boy said:
Agreed.

The other point is that all of these problems are not only being exacerbated by Brexit but they are being "dealt with" by a bumbling buffoon who's done more U turns than Mr Magoo driving round Milton Keynes and may be the singularly least qualified person in the entire country to fix nuanced problems that require proper attention to detail and a firm course.

And the reason? Because he had a catch phrase. And that catch phrase was "get Brexit done". And that seems to have been more important to the great British public than having a properly functional Health Service, a decent education system, fresh food, petrol, planning laws that actually made sense and well funded local government.

Don’t panic, nobody panic, the head prefect has turned up[emoji849]
Like a moth to a flame, a hysterical remainiac rocks up [emoji1303]

Hamilton · Sep 25, 2021

JC Footy Genius said:
The very same people who say it's not ALL about Brexit do go on and on and on and on and on about Brexit though ...

Jesus wept. Take a look in the mirror.

We’ve got Brexit now. Now we have problems. What are we going to do about them?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Neville's Breakfast · Sep 25, 2021

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Fair enough.

Hasn't Starmer embraced Brexit now, though? He won't attempt to reverse it, surely?

Althpugh perhaps you don't regard Starmer as left of centre. One of my brothers thinks he's just tory lite.

Funny old world

Actually, I like Starmer. Hope you’re right. Let’s see nearer the time and of course with his responses to issues like the current one.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Sep 25, 2021

Neville's Breakfast said:
Actually, I like Starmer. Hope you’re right. Let’s see nearer the time and of course with his responses to issues like the current one.

Guinness Boy · Sep 25, 2021

Baker lite said:
Don’t panic, nobody panic, the head prefect has turned up[emoji849]
Like a moth to a flame, a hysterical remainiac rocks up [emoji1303]

Thanks for another articulate and well reasoned contribution to NSC. God knows what we’d do without you.

Haven’t you got some Spiked tweets to RT?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wrong-Direction · Sep 25, 2021

Spoke to a bloke in his 70s this morning, they're desperate to get him back trucking

Sent from my SM-A600FN using Tapatalk

Berty23 · Sep 25, 2021

Wrong-Direction said:
Spoke to a bloke in his 70s this morning, they're desperate to get him back trucking

Sent from my SM-A600FN using Tapatalk

Pah. We need to cut all of the pointless red tape from EU like limiting hours. We should be getting at least 100 hours from the slackers. Safety concerns are just pointless bureaucratic red tape. People in the 80s should get pension stopped unless they are prepared to drive. In fact. If a young driver has passed their test then they should be given a lorry. Too much testing will stifle the country. Stop this pointless bureaucracy and cut the dreaded red tape.

Swansman · Sep 25, 2021

Hamilton said:
Jesus wept. Take a look in the mirror.

We’ve got Brexit now. Now we have problems. What are we going to do about them?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As a citizen of a nation that is part of the EU, I'd like to say that we also have various problems and are not living in some kind of utopia.

It appears to be a very convenient solution to blame every single problem on leaving the EU.

Baldseagull · Sep 25, 2021

Guy Fawkes said:
Why wouldn't they?
Brexit doesn't mean we can't chop and change our visa system and change our priorities for immigration

Immigration into the UK isn't exclusive to our being in the EU. Having left, there is now more flexibility on who and when visas are given rather than unlimited free movement that we had with EU membership. If that helps the poorer members of our society, leading to better wages for them and in turn a better quality of life for them, then should people be claiming it's a disaster and a mistake for leaving with no possible upside for anyone?

I am not sure I would describe it like that, more that we need to have a close eye on visa requirements and be flexible over the type and number issued.
There are pros and cons to freedom of movement of workers, and of Visa controlled migrant workers. Having to wait for your government to decide if there is a need, then how great that need is and then how it will play politically before deciding if it will act, is not really one of the pros of visa controlled worker migration.

There are other ways to ensure migrant workers are not unduly depressing wages, minimum wage rates by industry or qualification required would be one such method. As it is, our governments choices so far have been to reduce some of the limits set for safety reasons, allow extended working hours, reduced rest time, and less training. I don't think these are improvements to working conditions, all of which put the drivers, as well as other road users, at greater risk.

Baldseagull · Sep 25, 2021

Swansman said:
As a citizen of a nation that is part of the EU, I'd like to say that we also have various problems and are not living in some kind of utopia.

It appears to be a very convenient solution to blame every single problem on leaving the EU.

We know it isn't a Utopia, just not as bad as being out with a Government that is ideologically opposed to being tied to the EU in any way. There is a middle ground, but it is politically unacceptable to those still in love with the (unobtainable) ideals of Brexit at the moment.

pearl · Sep 25, 2021

jessiejames said:
I know there are other thread concerning this, I think people need to hear from a lorry drivers perception. I do tramping in both artic and class 2 day work.
There is no fuel shortage, not enough drivers to deliver. By panic buying that will stop lorries filling up, therefore being unable to make deliveries to shops. For me not a problem £550, to fill up my truck early this morning, I now have 1 full tank and 1 that is just under 3/4 full of Derv, should get me through to wed/Thurs next week.

Why is there a driver shortage and is it to do with Brexit?
Brexit is only a small part of the problem, most UK drivers have followed in their parents footsteps in to the industry, when I started aged 21 I was doing Continental work 3 weeks on 2 weeks off, brilliant if you have no commitment. Moved to tramping, out on Sunday/Monday back home on Friday/ Saturday. Again good if u don't have a family.
The Government were warned back in 2014 that this would happen with the introduction of the drivers certificate of professional competence, (DCPC). Basically every HGV driver needed to complete 35 hours training to be able to remain in the job, and they needed to complete this every 5 years. Older drivers said Bollocks to that waited the 5 years and left. Then the Working time directive came into force (WTD). How drivers have 2 sets of driving hours to contend with, 4.5 hours driving must show 45 minutes brake, but if working more than 6 hours but less than 4.5 hours u just show 15 min brake minimum, but between 6 and 9 hours you need to take another 30 min brake as well as the 15 between 0 and 6 hours working.
Every time the lorry is moving, this is driving time, every time the lorry is stationary this is working time, so stopped in traffic or lights = working time. WTD also means that over a certain period normally 26 weeks your working time must not average more than 48 hours per week. Daily driving is a maximum of 9 hours per day however 3 days a week you can do 10 hours, rest time must be a minimum of 11 hours a day, but can be reduced to 9 hours twice a week, provided that within 3 weeks u reclaim these hours back and he weekly rest is a minimum of 45 hours. All this is recorded in your drivers digital card, if u get an infringement the fine is between £30 up to £5,000 and if vocational licence revolked. I could now tell u about Period of availability (POA) another mode on the tachograph that we are supposed to use.
So what has Brexit got to do with this? The driving and WTD and DCPC are all laws brought in by the EU, now we are out these rules are still inplace, hence why do u want to be a new driver. The eastern European drivers employed over here have a!l left, and anyone new who wants to get into the industry will need to pay up to £5,000 just to get a licence.

If you need to park up in the services it's £30 a night, and if lucky u might get a clean warm shower in them, but chances are you will get filthy showers and cold water, and that is an extra £5 cost.

The industry is over regulated and under payed for the shit u have to put up with. If you can put up with that it can be enjoyable, a way of life as I see it.

Thank you for taking the time to post. Very enlightening

Eeyore · Sep 25, 2021

Who better to report on the problem at a petrol station.... :bowdown:

Swansman · Sep 25, 2021

Baldseagull said:
We know it isn't a Utopia, just not as bad as being out with a Government that is ideologically opposed to being tied to the EU in any way. There is a middle ground, but it is politically unacceptable to those still in love with the (unobtainable) ideals of Brexit at the moment.

Well we'll see in the long run if its "not as bad" or not. I'd love Sweden to get out of it asap. Quite likely to happen as people are increasingly tired of the EU laws forcing the privatisation of everything and everyone.

You can have EU or you can have democracy and I think a lot of people are starting to prefer democracy. I think you are more pioneers than some ugly duck - I expect plenty of countries to get out in the not too distant future.

Baldseagull · Sep 25, 2021

JC Footy Genius said:
Many thanks for posting that article from the Lorry driver where he listed all the problems his industry has faced including cheap Eastern European Labour suppressing wages making it a less desirable occupation.

Thats it mate, focus on the silver lining, I know how dear to your heart workers pay and conditions are, that's why you are such a big supporter of trade unions.

jessiejames · Sep 25, 2021

Well from when I started this thread I did not think that so many would comment, it seems that Brexit fears it's ugly head again. I voted at the last moment to remain, better the devil you know.
To simplify IMHO the driver shortage started with the introduction of the DCPC, long before Brexit was mentioned, 20,000 European drivers left when we came out, there was a shortfall before they went, the pay as always been poor but drivers still stayed in the job, yes they could have found better paid jobs, but to us this is a way of life.
A majority of drivers now are above 50 years old, this doesn't bode well for the future, we need to start making this a good job, yes the pay is going up but take away some of the deal that comes with it. DCPC not worth a toss, I spent 7 hours on one all about my companies rules and regulations, I could of left them started for another company with different rules but I still have my DCPC for the next 5 years. What they teach you on them any HGV driver should already know.
Work to the standard EU driving regulations, scrap the WTD, our hours are still managed by our tachograph and drivers card.
Government to give companies incentive to get drivers through HGV, incentives for those unemployed or those who want to change career, like funding.
Give companies better tax breaks in Derv, increase safety inspections for lorries to every 12 to 14 weeks. MOT online with cars, does a lorry need an MOT from year 1?
But above all give us better facilities to park up in just like Europe.

None of the above will make lorry driving any more dangerous than it is now. In fact if these changes were made I honestly believe the industry will be safer.

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[News] A lorry drivers view of driver shortage, fuel shortage and Brexit.

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