[Albion] Brighton - "more ruthless, less ballet"

Nobby Cybergoat · Sep 20, 2021

Pavilionaire said:
I agree that the overall mentality throughout the squad is better - tougher, comfortable without the ball, patient.

It's interesting how we've done without Gross in these last 2 fixtures. I actually think the likes of Lallana and Trossard have both raised their game and it affords us the luxury of playing March who can then assist on either flank if called upon.

That is interesting. Gross is a high quality player but set piece taking and penalties is part of the package that gets him selected more often than not.

Now we're scoring them without him, I wonder if GP will reason that weakens his claim.

Ferocious competition for places in midfield

KeegansHairPiece · Sep 20, 2021

Icy Gull said:
BTW, I think I love MC, that chip and sprint past a player was sublime and I’m more used to seeing it when it’s against us. Cult hero already and he’s just two games in, the improvement, when he had a decent debut, from last week was pleasing.

Biggest compliment that I heard about him yesterday was "it's like we've got a Bruno back at fullback".

Richy_Seagull · Sep 20, 2021

Might be going against the grain but to me this is just a massive example of result bias.

We deserved to be getting results last season, and bad luck/variance conspired against us. So far that has evened out so far this season.

Kalimantan Gull · Sep 20, 2021

I don't see us as that different to before at all stylistically. We have long periods where we dominate the ball and make chances, and when we are ahead (or score an equaliser away from home) we sit back and absorb pressure. That was the case all last season. The difference this year, albeit on a tiny sample size, is that we've scored goals earlier during our periods of domination, we haven't retreated after the first goal but kept going and scored a second during our periods of domination, haven't conceded as quickly when sitting back, and have popped in a couple of late winners to embelish our points total. And that's just the sign of an improving and more assured team.

Our xG was so high compared to actual goals last year because we just couldn't score when dominating, so we kept creating chance after chance which pushed the xG up. Now we score earlier and don't concede an immediate equaliser, so we are sitting on leads for longer. But as above, its a very small sample size, and also a very nice fixture list to start the season.

KeegansHairPiece · Sep 20, 2021

Richy_Seagull said:
Might be going against the grain but to me this is just a massive example of result bias.

We deserved to be getting results last season, and bad luck/variance conspired against us. So far that has evened out so far this season.

I don't think you're going against the grain at all. Plenty of posters, myself included saying the same thing.

I guess it depends on the 'baggage' you carry from last season. If you were a 'Potter Out' at any point, then naturally I think you're looking very hard for the differences between the previous and this one because there must be a change somewhere as you're opinion needs a reason to have changed. Those of us who hold the opinion we have been improving consistently under Potter but just not getting the results we've deserved, then this season is just a continuation of the previous progress, just that we are getting results going our way as you've said, you would hope afterall that we are getting better with overall such a young side.

Eric the meek · Sep 20, 2021

This is a really good thread.

So why have we got 12 points out of 15, when last season we would have achieved far fewer?

We've had theories of more ruthlessness, less ballet, more mental toughness, more experience, game management, fine margins etc. We've even had 'Duffy is better than Ben White' (which, at least in his core task, I agree with. Who would you rather have beside you in the trenches?). We do seem more resilient. We've also strengthened in several other areas.

Perhaps all of those things are valid. But perhaps we've just got better. Team Potter will have spent many video hours in close season, analysing where we went wrong, developing our strengths and closing the gaps, eliminating our weaknesses.

I've no data to back this up, and I know we scored our goals against Leicester from a penalty and a free-kick, but it seems we advance the ball up to the final third more quickly than in the past. Maybe this is just another way of saying 'more ruthlessness, less ballet'. But the quicker you get the ball into the danger areas, the less time the opposition have to set up. And even when they do set up, a little bit of quality can make the difference (Trossard's goal at Brentford).

This is a fantastic time for the club. We are getting better, and the results are starting to come.

The more results we get, the less likelihood it is all a flash in the pan, and the greater the chance of it being the real deal.

Guinness Boy · Sep 20, 2021

Richy_Seagull said:
Might be going against the grain but to me this is just a massive example of result bias.

We deserved to be getting results last season, and bad luck/variance conspired against us. So far that has evened out so far this season.

KeegansHairPiece said:
I don't think you're going against the grain at all. Plenty of posters, myself included saying the same thing.

I guess it depends on the 'baggage' you carry from last season. If you were a 'Potter Out' at any point, then naturally I think you're looking very hard for the differences between the previous and this one because there must be a change somewhere as you're opinion needs a reason to have changed. Those of us who hold the opinion we have been improving consistently under Potter but just not getting the results we've deserved, then this season is just a continuation of the previous progress, just that we are getting results going our way as you've said, you would hope afterall that we are getting better with overall such a young side.

It's not a stat I particularly like but a lot of the defence of Potter at the start of the 20/21 season when we weren't getting results was how good our xG was.

This season we have scored 7 goals against an xgF (expected to score) of 5.93. We have conceded 4 versus 5.73 expected. And the difference between the two is therefore only 0.2. In expected points we are overachieving by 5.25 points.

https://understat.com/league/EPL

Compare that to last season where we scored 13 fewer than expected and underachieved against expected points by over 20.

So either something fairly fundamental has changed or "expected" this and that is bollocks after all.

est.83 · Sep 20, 2021

KeegansHairPiece said:
...we've started this season how we finished the last.

League table 2021 calendar year: https://www.transfermarkt.com/premier-league/jahrestabelle/wettbewerb/GB1/saison_id/2021

JBizzle · Sep 20, 2021

Weststander said:
Potter isn’t afraid to adapt and he definitely learns.

Against Everton we made the fatal mistake of allowing Demarai Grey the freedom of The Amex. Yesterday we put both Veltman and Solly on the brilliant Harvey Barnes, particularly after the first ten minutes.

We’re not now afraid to time waste, hoof a clearance, play the percentages, manage a game to see it out and claim the points. All of that was an anathema to earlier Potter.

Yet we’re still playing some good stuff and I think we’ll improve aesthetically as Moder, Mwepu etc develop.

To be fair, that was mainly because all of our fullbacks were injured, exacerbated by March's injury shortly before the match.

I think we're much better at game management this season, you're right. It's great to see some sh!thousery creeping into our style. I also think that Duffy's presence on set plays is not to be underestimated. He may not be the best on the floor, but goodness me it's making the world of difference having a threat like him on corners

Weststander · Sep 20, 2021

JBizzle said:
To be fair, that was mainly because all of our fullbacks were injured, exacerbated by March's injury shortly before the match.

I think we're much better at game management this season, you're right. It's great to see some sh!thousery creeping into our style. I also think that Duffy's presence on set plays is not to be underestimated. He may not be the best on the floor, but goodness me it's making the world of difference having a threat like him on corners

Agreed. Gray versus Gross was only going to end one way ..... and it did.

Hamilton · Sep 20, 2021

Uh_huh_him said:
I agree.
It's also worth mentioning that the 12 points we've taken this season, whilst being easier games, are all from the type of games we were failing to win last season.
I think the difference is mentality.

I made the argument in pre-season, that there were many more points to be had, by toughening up our mentality than by signing a striker.
We dropped 20 odd points last season from winning positions, despite not scoring enough goals.
There was an argument to be made that we were good enough to be top half, in every aspect of the game, apart from mental toughness.

My guess is that has been the focus in pre-season.

Agree with both the opening posts. The style is definitely a mix of passing play and a more direct approach. I would also say that the difference is marginal too, which is why I'm not getting carried away just yet.

Trossard is playing a blinder at the moment and yesterday's first half dominance was down to him winning that ball in midfield and making quick decisions in distributing that ball. Together with Lallana and Biss they controlled midfield.

We are still guilty of playing ballet around the box when we can shoot, but this is starting to change as well.

I'm a little concerned by the experience in the depth of our squad. A couple of injuries to key players and we could well find ourselves under pressure. Mwepu clearly needs more time to acclimatise as does Richards, so let's hope they learn fast. I'm also still concerned about our pace. I mean, it will be great to have Lampty and Cucurella terrorising the full backs and putting in crosses. We just need to make sure players are in the box to feed off these.

It feel so much more purposeful now. We've retained the pretty play and added a bit more steel.

Berty23 · Sep 20, 2021

I reckon we have just had a bit more luck this season. Last season it started with Chelsea. A Reece James worldie and a scuffed shot deflected in from a corner while dunk didn’t score with a relatively straightforward header. We could easily have won that match with a little luck. I struggle to recall any “lucky points” picked up last season but some of those we dropped were freak. I will never figure out West Brom away and palace over the two matches was simply bizarre. The pen at their place and two worldies from their two touches in the box at ours.

Just those matches alone could very easily have added 8 points to our total!

People say you make your own luck and quote Gary player “the more I practice the luckier I get” but he was not taking about luck. If an opposition striker inexplicably misses an open goal in the last minute then that is luck. In fact maybe wolves home we got lucky with that miss they had. What about a player slipping when they take a pen? Different ref call. All luck.

Let’s hope we are different this season. Personally I don’t think we are playing that well yet and I am genuinely excited what we could do with cuc and lamptey on the flanks. This season could be incredible.

Kalimantan Gull · Sep 20, 2021

KeegansHairPiece said:
I don't think you're going against the grain at all. Plenty of posters, myself included saying the same thing.

I guess it depends on the 'baggage' you carry from last season. If you were a 'Potter Out' at any point, then naturally I think you're looking very hard for the differences between the previous and this one because there must be a change somewhere as you're opinion needs a reason to have changed. Those of us who hold the opinion we have been improving consistently under Potter but just not getting the results we've deserved, then this season is just a continuation of the previous progress, just that we are getting results going our way as you've said, you would hope afterall that we are getting better with overall such a young side.

Absolutely spot on, and speaks a lot to human nature. What the argument is missing is an acknowledgement that Potter was 'always' trying to make us play quicker and find that killer pass quicker, what we were doing last year wasn't a final product but a stage in our development. As we get better at it, so the goals and results will come. Its not a change in philosophy, we just weren't often able to implement it last year, now we're just getting better at doing what he wants us to do, and he's getting better at making it happen.

I can see a parallel with Piers Morgan defending his comments about Emma Raducanu being mentally-weak at Wimbledon. To paraphrase his defence 'I said she needed to toughen up, and she obviously took my advice'. He was wrong in his assessment of her as weak, didn't recognise that it was just a stage on a journey, and then uses the better result at the US Open to try and prove he was right.

Mellotron · Sep 20, 2021

Herr Tubthumper said:
I also think he will be the perfect coach for England.

He would be, if they gave him enough time to implement his style, which I don't think he'd get.

KeegansHairPiece · Sep 20, 2021

Guinness Boy said:
It's not a stat I particularly like but a lot of the defence of Potter at the start of the 20/21 season when we weren't getting results was how good our xG was.

This season we have scored 7 goals against an xgF (expected to score) of 5.93. We have conceded 4 versus 5.73 expected. And the difference between the two is therefore only 0.2. In expected points we are overachieving by 5.25 points.

https://understat.com/league/EPL

Compare that to last season where we scored 13 fewer than expected and underachieved against expected points by over 20.

So either something fairly fundamental has changed or "expected" this and that is bollocks after all.

It hasn't fundamentally changed or that statistics are bollocks, we're continuing on a path of playing well, very much a progression from last season with results going our way - which statistics over the last 2 years would suggest we've been well overdue.

There is still a nice lot of ballet in there, still the adventure, confidence and forward thinking of our play to enjoy and admire, it's been building for sometime, results are just catching up. :albion2:

Wardy's twin · Sep 20, 2021

Gwylan said:
We also played some of our best football last season against the better teams and, as detractors don't stop reminding us, we've had an easy run so far. Arsenal, City and Liverpool will give us a different kind of test

Part of that's because we were allowed to play our football by teams looking for wins because they thought they could/should beat us whilst the lower teams generally closed up waiting to hit on the break. We were not good enough to open 11 man defences .

Terry Butcher Tribute Act · Sep 20, 2021

Great thread. Thing it's an example of much better management. Less focus on passing for passing's sake (likely partially because of Duffy) and we are reaping the rewards. Fantastic defending yesterday after a brilliant first hour.

Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

Wardy's twin · Sep 20, 2021

Berty23 said:
I reckon we have just had a bit more luck this season. Last season it started with Chelsea. A Reece James worldie and a scuffed shot deflected in from a corner while dunk didn’t score with a relatively straightforward header. We could easily have won that match with a little luck. I struggle to recall any “lucky points” picked up last season but some of those we dropped were freak. I will never figure out West Brom away and palace over the two matches was simply bizarre. The pen at their place and two worldies from their two touches in the box at ours.

Just those matches alone could very easily have added 8 points to our total!

People say you make your own luck and quote Gary player “the more I practice the luckier I get” but he was not taking about luck. If an opposition striker inexplicably misses an open goal in the last minute then that is luck. In fact maybe wolves home we got lucky with that miss they had. What about a player slipping when they take a pen? Different ref call. All luck.

Let’s hope we are different this season. Personally I don’t think we are playing that well yet and I am genuinely excited what we could do with cuc and lamptey on the flanks. This season could be incredible.

agree its not just football its luck an referees ....

Wardy's twin · Sep 20, 2021

Hamilton said:
Trossard is playing a blinder at the moment

.

I think this is pretty key, we know there i a good footballer in there he just hasn't been consistent , this season has been a different story

Garry Nelson's Left Foot · Sep 20, 2021

Herr Tubthumper said:
Is this a change in approach or the team and Potter with a year’s more of experience and learning? Difficult to say. The only thing I can say with confidence is Potter is about learning and slow evolution; we so clearly improve each and every season.

My biggest concern now is that he will be snaffled up by a bigger club. I also think he will be the perfect coach for England.

With the sporadic nature of international breaks and thus the limited time working with the players that the manager gets I'm not sure the two highlighted sentences go together.

That said I would love to see how his club management would translate to the international stage. Not for a few more years though.

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