[News] New E10 Petrol Coming This Year, Is Your Car Compatible?

Perfidious Albion · Jun 23, 2021

I cannot successfully post a link on this tablet but the Gov. website says that a new grade of petrol is coming soon which will suit most cars, but not older ones

You can check it out to be sure.....

scooter1 · Jun 23, 2021

The .gov site is probably ok for most cars, but useless(I found) for motorbikes/scooters. In both instances it suggested I contacted the manufacturer....

zefarelly · Jun 23, 2021

most of the scooters have retarded timing to account for pissy petrol so [MENTION=5120]scooter1[/MENTION] we should be ok. but you know to use super at least anyway ;-)

the other issue for older bangers, classics etc is the corrosion it causes. Its not water ( although long term that can be an issue), it's the pH balance, it can damage pumps/injectors if its too low, and seals etc if its too high.

I've just finished designing and we've built a storage and injection system for one of the big fuel companies which adds corrosion inhibitor to ethanol, which in turn gets injected into fuel streams . . .

All I can say is, ALL petrol and diesel is exactly the same . . . . . its the additives that vary . . . . that's the reason supermarket piss is so much cheaper, there's hardly any in it. If you have a classic, don't use cheap petrol. and premium Unleaded will remain E5 I think.

Audax · Jun 23, 2021

They've been using E10 in Australia for a long time. IIRC it caused no end of problems when it first came out (largely because it was under-regulated and in many cases people were filling up with it without knowing that's what they were doing). It originally became prevalent in Australia because it was cheaper, but I believe it's now the primary mainstream fuel.

Edit: It varies state-by-state. NSW and QLD have introduced regulations aimed at increasing the uptake of E10. Having checked, it been around in Australia since at least the early 2000's, and my memory is that it first emerged before then - it was the early 2000's when the governments caught up and starting regulating. E10 is a product of that regulation - in the unregulated period they were seeing Ethanol content as high as 20%. The E10 standard and regulations were then adopted off the back of research showing that the 20% blends were damaging older engines.

Worth noting that Australia also uses E85, however it's restricted to vehicles specifically designed to use it (including the Supercars racing series cars).

studio150 · Jun 23, 2021

Perfidious Albion said:
I cannot successfully post a link on this tablet but the Gov. website says that a new grade of petrol is coming soon which will suit most cars, but not older ones

You can check it out to be sure.....

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/e10-petrol-explained

Link for those interested.

Strange but this is the first I have seen of this. you would have thought that would have been a much wider campaign to ensure drivers are fully aware of the changes.

Neville's Breakfast · Jun 23, 2021

This is a good thing though, right ? Lower carbon emissions.
Or is it yet another Tory conspiracy ?

zefarelly · Jun 23, 2021

Neville's Breakfast said:
This is a good thing though, right ? Lower carbon emissions.
Or is it yet another Tory conspiracy ?

Good question, it kind of depends on the specific engine and its Volumetric efficiency, design/set up.

. . . . I olny use 105 octane leaded super duper megabuck petrol in my race car, it does 15 MPG . . . . on a good day . . . . it would melt, literally if I fed it E10. I have a similar engine in a classic road car which will run on it, if I retune . . . . it'll be less efficient. so yes it can be better for the environment, but arguably not, if the engine is running inefficiently.

it may burn clean, but you're burning more.

Slash and burn farmng to make it vs digging it out of the ground ? another discussion entirely.

beorhthelm · Jun 23, 2021

Neville's Breakfast said:
This is a good thing though, right ? Lower carbon emissions.
Or is it yet another Tory conspiracy ?

bio-ethanol fuels are superficially renewable. though some reports suggest lower MPG so may not be net benefit.

zefarelly said:
...Slash and burn farmng to make it vs digging it out of the ground ? another discussion entirely.

yeah, they did same with biodiesel and overlooked the impact of tearing down forests to grow palm oil, to fuel european cars. CO2 trumps all considerations though.

hart's shirt · Jun 23, 2021

I think I'll wait until Christmas for the E11.

Audax · Jun 23, 2021

zefarelly said:
Good question, it kind of depends on the specific engine and its Volumetric efficiency, design/set up.

. . . . I olny use 105 octane leaded super duper megabuck petrol in my race car, it does 15 MPG . . . . on a good day . . . . it would melt, literally if I fed it E10. I have a similar engine in a classic road car which will run on it, if I retune . . . . it'll be less efficient. so yes it can be better for the environment, but arguably not, if the engine is running inefficiently.

it may burn clean, but you're burning more.

Slash and burn farmng to make it vs digging it out of the ground ? another discussion entirely.

I believe E10 has been a success in Australia in net terms. However, Australia is a very different proposition from the UK. For starters, Australia has/had the capability to grow the crops for the Biofuel (although whether or not Australia can do it sustainably long term is open for debate...) - the UK, not so much. So it'll mean importing. Which might explain why the UK is 20 years behind Australia on this.

Edit: For me, I think the UK has missed the window for this. It made sense 20-25 years ago when the Aussies did it. But now we're living in a world where electric is on the cusp of becoming mainstream. I can see this being a case of the UK putting a lot of time, effort, and resource into bringing in E10 fuels only to find they've wasted it all because electric has taken off.

zefarelly · Jun 23, 2021

Audax said:
I believe E10 has been a success in Australia in net terms. However, Australia is a very different proposition from the UK. For starters, Australia has/had the capability to grow the crops for the Biofuel (although whether or not Australia can do it sustainably long term is open for debate...) - the UK, not so much. So it'll mean importing. Which might explain why the UK is 20 years behind Australia on this.

Edit: For me, I think the UK has missed the window for this. It made sense 20-25 years ago when the Aussies did it. But now we're living in a world where electric is on the cusp of becoming mainstream. I can see this being a case of the UK putting a lot of time, effort, and resource into bringing in E10 fuels only to find they've wasted it all because electric has taken off.

we're all queueing up to spend tens of thousands we don't have on vehicles with little support infrastructure and a bigger carbon footprint than a Rolls Royce!

in all seriousness, hybrids will be the norm very soon I hope.

A1X · Jun 23, 2021

I decided to skip a few steps and went straight for the E45. My car has never been smoother.

zefarelly · Jun 23, 2021

I just got a bottle of Extra virgin olive oil, mine smokes like Serge Gainsbourg.

I have a new ( to me ) car this year, I have tried super unleaded and unledaed, can't tell the difference performance wise, did get slightly better fuel economy with super, but it did not offset the additional cost.

Audax · Jun 23, 2021

zefarelly said:
we're all queueing up to spend tens of thousands we don't have on vehicles with little support infrastructure and a bigger carbon footprint than a Rolls Royce!

in all seriousness, hybrids will be the norm very soon I hope.

That's all going to change a lot quicker than you might realise. Price is coming down all the time. Currently being hidden in using the reduced cost of the batteries to extend range, but the cost-per-mile of range is coming down rapidly every year. As far as I'm aware that point on carbon footprint is wrong - it came from flawed pro-fossil funded research that ignored / overlooked a lot of factors in favour of electric. Infrastructure side - yep, there's a lot of gaps, but with every month that passes the gaps get fewer and fewer.

Also: for those who can stomach the up-front cost, the long term total cost of ownership of electric is already lower than for full-fossil, and in many cases lower than hybrid. That comparison is only going to improve as we approach the full-fossil ICE ban for new vehicles.

There will be a tipping point, sooner rather the later, where electric will go from niche to full blown sales acceleration. It's not far away, which is why I question the viability of sinking a lot of time and effort into rolling out E10 over here.

newhaven seagull 85 · Jun 23, 2021

For anyone with a classic car Power still sell E0 unleaded

zefarelly · Jun 24, 2021

newhaven seagull 85 said:
For anyone with a classic car Power still sell E0 unleaded

for racing we use real stuff. It aint cheap, but you get a big bang for your buck

tree huggers, look away now! :laugh:

https://aaoil.co.uk/product-category/racing-fuel/

GOM · Jun 24, 2021

zefarelly said:
we're all queueing up to spend tens of thousands we don't have on vehicles with little support infrastructure and a bigger carbon footprint than a Rolls Royce!

in all seriousness, hybrids will be the norm very soon I hope.

I hope it won't be the norm, the worst of both worlds, still burning fossil fuels.

For all EV doubters who have read the propaganda by the those with a vested interest in burning fossil fuels and car maintenance/servicing, watch this video and see if you still think an EV has a bigger carbon footprint than a Rolls Royce

https://youtu.be/1oVrIHcdxjA

zefarelly · Jun 24, 2021

GOM said:
I hope it won't be the norm, the worst of both worlds, still burning fossil fuels.

For all EV doubters who have read the propaganda by the those with a vested interest in burning fossil fuels and car maintenance/servicing, watch this video and see if you still think an EV has a bigger carbon footprint than a Rolls Royce

https://youtu.be/1oVrIHcdxjA

I'mnot a doubter, but Hybrids will knock off fossil fuel before battery only does IMO, the tech is already out there proven and sustainable. . . . fully electric won't be the majority for a while yet.

zefarelly · Jun 24, 2021

zefarelly said:
I'mnot a doubter, but Hybrids will knock off fossil fuel before battery only does IMO, the tech is already out there proven and sustainable. . . . fully electric won't be the majority for a while yet.

As an aside, I've already earmarked one of my Lambrettas for electric conversion, as and when a kit arrives on the market that will give the range/performance for it to be useful to me. I have looked at doing it myslef, likewise converting a Cortina to electric, but frankly I can't be arsaed, I've had my fill of reinventing wheels the last 15 years!

Audax · Jun 24, 2021

zefarelly said:
I'mnot a doubter, but Hybrids will knock off fossil fuel before battery only does IMO, the tech is already out there proven and sustainable. . . . fully electric won't be the majority for a while yet.

As I mentioned earlier, I think it'll be sooner than you realise. The big manufacturer's are only just starting to get into the full EV game now (having mostly ceded the early years to the likes of Tesla). The cost to buy an EV is going to come down enough in the next 5 years to make them competitive, and the longer term running costs are already so much cheaper that EV is already the way to go as long as you can swallow the up-front. Now that governments around the world are committing to pro-EV policies. Even hybrids now have a planned shelf-life that is limited, so the R&D funding is going to drop away from hybrid in favour of EV rapidly.

Having the big players like VW pumping their R&D budgets into EV is going to create rapid change. As will increasing competition in the EV market as more manufacturer's begin to release their mainstream ranges.

I've switched to EV already. Initially, by taking out a 4 year lease on a Zoe. Leases are more expensive in the long run, but there's no way I was buying outright now when all the signs are pointing to the next generation EV's (as the next big steps forward in battery tech come through) being the generation that will provide the tipping point that will cause the phase out of fossil-fuel burners (including hybrids) to accelerate through simple sales numbers.

My Zoe (and the charging infrastructure) isn't there yet for being a holiday vehicle, but it's plenty for my work commute (once I start going back to the office). Have kept hold of my previous Prius for the Mrs and holidays for now, but I think in just a few years I'll be fossil-free driving as I'm expecting my next EV to be absolutely viable for holiday trips as well as commuting.

(Of course, I've already got solar on my roof which helps - during lockdown I can honestly say at least 75% of the miles I've done have been done "for free").

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