[Politics] White working class failure

Harry Wilson's tackle · Jun 22, 2021

This comes as no surprise to me:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-57558746

White working class have been at the bottom of the achievement pile for many years. Especially boys.

I'm old enought to remember growing up when it was expected that I 'know my place'. Getting into grammar school was life or death. I was lucky. At university I was the only person I knew there on a grant of any sort (I was on a full grant). I have one old mate from uni days (who is the son of a diplomat, but, like me a bit peculiar). The rest of them were alien. I somehow got a PhD place in Canada and nobody could understand my regional (Brighton) accent, so I had to learn to speek queen's English just to get by. But Canada is relatively classless and it was only 4 years away from the UK that 'saved me' (from never forgetting 'my place'). When I came back to the UK I was able to stare down middle class arrogance (from the young medics doing their MD training). I managed to blag a lectureship and my career has been quite good. But boy do I get abreactions from some of the middle classes. Fear is the main abreaction :lolol:

. My football and music...my 'attitude' rub them up the wrong way. A lot of it is just me but the class 'press' has always been there.

I feel that things are manyfold better now than in the 70s, but today's data speak for themselves. I'd be very happy indeed to see some positive intervention. When I was a kid I knew kids who passed the 11 plus but were sent by their parents to the secondary modern school because 'that sort of thing isn't for us'. Shocking. In fact my first wife was one. Things are better, but having large swathes of the population struggling and feeling neglected while being told they are 'lucky' is the root cause of all sorts of our recent and current problems, I suspect.

Others care to share their experience?

ATFC Seagull · Jun 22, 2021

I don't think anyone is saying to white working-class kids "you're lucky because you're white". Just that, for all the things that are stacked against them in life, colour isn't one.

Eeyore · Jun 22, 2021

I was talking about the wider questions of race and culture with a friend of mixed race on Friday.

I think a delineation of race and culture is needed. Sometimes, excepting above, things are over analysed. A child's background and environment is the biggest indicator of development.

Historically, as an example, Indian kids do better in education. A study as to why that is would unearth cultural influence.

Even when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s, if you worked hard at school and had the right influences away from school, the opportunities were there. I was fortunate to go to the most sought after primary facility in the country but my secondary facility was opposite. One of the problems was the judgements that defined your academic path at 12 though.

I do look at these studies and feel that they are missing something though. And that's the emphasis on race rather than environment and influence. There are links, but I think it gets overplayed.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Jun 22, 2021

ATFC Seagull said:
I don't think anyone is saying to white working-class kids "you're lucky because you're white". Just that, for all the things that are stacked against them in life, colour isn't one.

I'm not keen for the conversation to go down this path, but we were told that very thing. It was part of the atmos when I grew up. In fact, we were constantly reminded that we were superior (to other races, especially the ones with darker skin). The point is that the wider perception that 'they're white, they're alright' (not disadvantaged) still exists. If other demographics can be identified for assistance then this one can and should be too.

Eeyore · Jun 22, 2021

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I'm not keen for the conversation to go down this path, but we were told that very thing. It was part of the atmos when I grew up. In fact, we were constantly reminded that we were superior (to other races, especially the ones with darker skin). The point is that the wider perception that 'they're white, they're alright' (not disadvantaged) still exists. If other demographics can be identified for assistance then this one can and should be too.

Possibly. Although because British White is the dominant race it may be that those who struggle are missed easier than those in minority groups. Just a thought. But I feel it underlines my view of talking things from a cultural perspective rather than one of race. That way they would find themselves in a grouping with those of colour who also struggle.

Pavilionaire · Jun 22, 2021

I'm not surprised either.

Society is totally focused on racial and sexual equality - it is trying to make up for decades of neglect in a short period of time. This is a good thing, but in applying almost evangelical focus it is neglecting the opportunities for white working class kids and the mental health of adult men.

I think this is one of the reasons why some people boo taking the knee, why some people voted Brexit and why the Red Wall voted for a Tory party promising to get tough on immigration.

ATFC Seagull · Jun 22, 2021

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I'm not keen for the conversation to go down this path, but we were told that very thing. It was part of the atmos when I grew up. In fact, we were constantly reminded that we were superior (to other races, especially the ones with darker skin). The point is that the wider perception that 'they're white, they're alright' (not disadvantaged) still exists. If other demographics can be identified for assistance then this one can and should be too.

I have to disagree here, although not writing off your own experiences.

There is some (not enough) affirmative action, intervention and support for working class kids, but it is aimed at those across the ethnic spectrum, as it is social and economic issues behind it, not race. I don't see what having places at university or in workplaces reserved for specifically WHITE working class backgrounds would achieve, or what disadvantage it would be seeking to redress.

Tom Hark Preston Park · Jun 22, 2021

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
This comes as no surprise to me:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-57558746

White working class have been at the bottom of the achievement pile for many years. Especially boys.

I'm old enought to remember growing up when it was expected that I 'know my place'. Getting into grammar school was life or death. I was lucky. At university I was the only person I knew there on a grant of any sort (I was on a full grant). I have one old mate from uni days (who is the son of a diplomat, but, like me a bit peculiar). The rest of them were alien. I somehow got a PhD place in Canada and nobody could understand my regional (Brighton) accent, so I had to learn to speek queen's English just to get by. But Canada is relatively classless and it was only 4 years away from the UK that 'saved me' (from never forgetting 'my place'). When I came back to the UK I was able to stare down middle class arrogance (from the young medics doing their MD training). I managed to blag a lectureship and my career has been quite good. But boy do I get abreactions from some of the middle classes. Fear is the main abreaction . My football and music...my 'attitude' rub them up the wrong way. A lot of it is just me but the class 'press' has always been there.

I feel that things are manyfold better now than in the 70s, but today's data speak for themselves. I'd be very happy indeed to see some positive intervention. When I was a kid I knew kids who passed the 11 plus but were sent by their parents to the secondary modern school because 'that sort of thing isn't for us'. Shocking. In fact my first wife was one. Things are better, but having large swathes of the population struggling and feeling neglected while being told they are 'lucky' is the root cause of all sorts of our recent and current problems, I suspect.

Others care to share their experience?

Bry Nylon · Jun 22, 2021

Kids are a product of their environment. Schools can only do so much but if kids have uninterested, low-achieving, unambitious parents who are addicted to their huge phones then the outcome is usually inevitable.

Kids from affluent backgrounds can suffer these disadvantages too but they generally have wealth to cushion their fall.

Guinness Boy · Jun 22, 2021

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Others care to share their experience?

Just deep sadness that this will probably be reduced to the normal race issues within a page or two because one of the headline phrases involves "white privilege". It's a bit more complex than that.

Nowadays educational ghettos don't form around Grammer or Sec Modern but around the property market and gentrification. The better middle class teachers will teach in schools with the more likely to succeed (and, at least ostensibly) better behaved kids. Who all live in nice houses, whatever their skin colour.

Even then it can vary, and change quickly within an area. My kids' original primary got a new head who focussed in on trying to improve the lot of people who, in truth, she looked down on. Suddenly the place was full of kids with SEN statements or who had been expelled from somewhere else (or both). So all the bright kids left :shrug:

Harry Wilson's tackle · Jun 22, 2021

ATFC Seagull said:
I have to disagree here, although not writing off your own experiences.

There is some (not enough) affirmative action, intervention and support for working class kids, but it is aimed at those across the ethnic spectrum, as it is social and economic issues behind it, not race. I don't see what having places at university or in workplaces reserved for specifically WHITE working class backgrounds would achieve, or what disadvantage it would be seeking to redress.

You are putting words in my mouth. I am not in favour of reserving places anywhere for anyone. Positive discrimination (favouring a lower achiever over a higher achiever when making an appointment where achievement is a key determinant of fitness) is wrong

I am saying identify the strugglers and if the constitute a group then find some way to provide cohort support. I don't know what the support may be, but you can't do anything if you don't identify the cohort (or, in this case, it would seem, actively look away from it, and pretend it doesn't exist).

Edit: If there is a recognition that some ethnic or religious groups need ethnic specific or religion specific support then one can't then say 'but this doesn't apply in the case of white working class people'. If nothing, not support at schools, support for females of that community, support over cultural issues, is ever targetted at any particular ethnic orreligious group in the UK and all assistance is administered solely on the basis of an objective (and cohort-independent) measure of disadvantage, then I stand corrected (and the BBC needs to be told too).

GT49er · Jun 22, 2021

ATFC Seagull said:
I don't think anyone is saying to white working-class kids "you're lucky because you're white".

But that is surely the perception that the concept of 'white privilege' engenders?

Tom Hark Preston Park · Jun 22, 2021

Bry Nylon said:
Kids are a product of their environment. Schools can only do so much but if kids have uninterested, low-achieving, unambitious parents who are addicted to their huge phones then the outcome is usually inevitable.

Disagree. A fully engaged teacher or football coach or significant other adult can reset the mindset given to kids by their parent(s)

zefarelly · Jun 22, 2021

I listened to this feature on R4 in the car this morning. It just reminded me of middle school around 1980 and some of the kids I knew.

I went to a different senior school than most, and the biggest difference there was they didn't let you fall off the bottom of the ladder. Everyone had to attain something, not necessarily much but something. some schools were just day care centres for disaffected kids from disaffected ill educated poor families with little to no hope before they were even free to try to achieve anything. There's clearly still a lot of it about.

zefarelly · Jun 22, 2021

Tom Hark said:
Disagree. A fully engaged teacher or football coach or significant other adult can reset the mindset given to kids by their parent(s)

I've witnessed kids get shot down by parents, very sad. I had a situation with my lad getting bullied, verbally mostly, when he was about 9, then I met the mother. what can you do ? :down:

As mentioned on an other thread, parental proficiency testing maybe? ;-)

Robdinho · Jun 22, 2021

GT49er said:
But that is surely the perception that the concept of 'white privilege' engenders?

No, that is the perception of white privilege that has been promoted by some to get certain sections of society all worked up.

White privilege means nothing more than the 'privilege' of not being discriminated against based on the colour of your skin. Nothing more. It does not mean that every white person has it easy, the only people promoting that meaning are those looking to diminish the cause for equality by seeking to create division.

e77 · Jun 22, 2021

I left school 30 years ago but I remember bright kids who wanted to answer a lot of questions in class and children with specific learning requirements got lot of the attention while a lot of kids in the middle who just sat in class keeping quiet could slip through the net and coast until it was time to leave school.

Back then you could do a course at the local Tech College (Northbrook in Worthing in my case) but with the rise in University places I don't think that is so easy anymore (not that there is anything wrong with University, but it isn't for everyone).

Harry Wilson's tackle · Jun 22, 2021

Guinness Boy said:
Just deep sadness that this will probably be reduced to the normal race issues within a page or two because one of the headline phrases involves "white privilege". It's a bit more complex than that.

Nowadays educational ghettos don't form around Grammer or Sec Modern but around the property market and gentrification. The better middle class teachers will teach in schools with the more likely to succeed (and, at least ostensibly) better behaved kids. Who all live in nice houses, whatever their skin colour.

Even then it can vary, and change quickly within an area. My kids' original primary got a new head who focussed in on trying to improve the lot of people who, in truth, she looked down on. Suddenly the place was full of kids with SEN statements or who had been expelled from somewhere else (or both). So all the bright kids left

I created the title from the news story.

I happen to agree with you, however. I suspect my experience is somewhat related to my age. My experience seemed to resonate with the BBC story.

I suspect we both believe that 'you may be struggling because you are working class and have a value set, experience, social network and perhaps even aspirations that are not conducive to high achievement'. And I don't imagine anyone would argue 'you may be struggling because you are white', not even he most avid of racists (struggling being incompatible with superiority).

Perhaps it would be better to remove 'colour' from any discussion about disadvantage, these days. I suspect the counter argument would be that 'but being black and working class has added special disadvantages'. But this then allows special pleading for white working class (as a specific cohort) on grounds of balance and fairness, surely? As someone else pointed out, a perception of unfairness and neglect of the white working class cohort (or even simply the working class) may be one reason for the booing of the knee taking.

Back to me, I do not and never have felt disadvantaged because I'm white. I have certainly felt disadvantaged because of the perception of others about my class. I have thought that I doubt that some of the quips I have received would never have been delivered, had I been exactly the same as I am except with dark skin. I have never had any help or guidance on navigating the middle class world, but there again I wouldn't have had, had I been black. (As a side note, there is mentoring of female students where I work but not any other 'minority', curiously). Do I care? For myself? Not really. Perhaps all these years of being an academic have turned me middle class.

Tom Hark Preston Park · Jun 22, 2021

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I created the title from the news story.

I happen to agree with you, however. I suspect my experience is somewhat related to my age. My experience seemed to resonate with the BBC story.

I suspect we both believe that 'you may be struggling because you are working class and have a value set, experience, social network and perhaps even aspirations that are not conducive to high achievement'. And I don't imagine anyone would argue 'you may be struggling because you are white', not even he most avid of racists (struggling being incompatible with superiority).

Perhaps it would be better to remove 'colour' from any discussion about disadvantage, these days. I suspect the counter argument would be that 'but being black and working class has added special disadvantages'. But this then allows special pleading for white working class (as a specific cohort) on grounds of balance and fairness, surely? As someone else pointed out, a perception of unfairness and neglect of the white working class cohort (or even simply the working class) may be one reason for the booing of the knee taking.

Back to me, I do not and never have felt disadvantaged because I'm white. I have certainly felt disadvantaged because of the perception of others about my class. I have thought that I doubt that some of the quips I have received would never have been delivered, had I been exactly the same as I am except with dark skin. I have never had any help or guidance on navigating the middle class world, but there again I wouldn't have had, had I been black. (As a side note, there is mentoring of female students where I work but not any other 'minority', curiously). Do I care? For myself? Not really. Perhaps all these years of being an academic have turned me middle class.

Not sure we ever allowed to leave you on this one H?

zefarelly · Jun 22, 2021

I've never felt disadvantage or advantaged either way. I guess age and timing makes all the difference, I did ok at school. nothing more, decided to leave half way through first year of A levels and worked, after a year I got an apprenticeship as a draughtsman as I loved drawing and went to Northbrook in Worthing on day release. in the late 80's we could pick and choose what work we wanted, there were kids my age earning loads building, but they're probably all shot to bits now! we all had choices. I always (jokingly) identified as upper working class ;-) did my time in a council flat on a horrible estate when my parents split up., my mum and all of us worked our way out of it. . . at that point in the late 70's it would have been very easy for her to stay there. .

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