[Football] We only want a point against the Czech Republic

Easy 10 · Jun 20, 2021

I can certainly see Southgate shuffling the pack a bit for this game, but there is NO WAY England will play for the draw on Tuesday. Any of those fringe players coming in and getting their chance will be busting a gut to impress and stake a claim for their place in the team. We'll be going full-throttle for the win.

Whether we're actually good enough to get the W is for another thread.

Pogue Mahone · Jun 20, 2021

Seaview Seagull said:
This going on about Mings is beginning to make us look silly bearing in mind most pundits and observers think he has played well in the games that matter.

Make 'us look silly'? To who?

I couldn't care less, frankly.

I would love to have a different opinion of Mings as a player - I respect him enormously as a person, and he stands up for his rights, and those of his fellow man, with intelligence and passion.

He has done what is required of him, defensively, so far, and I am pleased that he hasn't made one of his customary errors in a dangerous position.

However, he is nowhere near the standard of other English players in his position, and should not be in the team ahead them. If we want a progressive, footballing centre half, he is not the man for the job. Even Villa fans think he isn't even THEIR best English centre back.

Brovion · Jun 21, 2021

Swansman said:
Less embarrasing to go out vs Germany / Portugal / France than vs Sweden though...

Naa. We might have though that back in the 1960s, or before World War 2, but over the last 60 years or so at international level or so you've always been the stronger nation as the head-to-head record shows.

After that insipid and clueless performance against Scotland (Scotland!) I don't think we have an embarrassment threshold now

Swansman · Jun 21, 2021

Brovion said:
Naa. We might have though that back in the 1960s, or before World War 2, but over the last 60 years or so at international level or so you've always been the stronger nation as the head-to-head record shows.

After that insipid and clueless performance against Scotland (Scotland!) I don't think we have an embarrassment threshold now

Tbh this is the weakest Swedish team in a long time and I think you would have a very good chance of winning.

The Scotland performance pretty much proved what I said before the tournament... the English midfield is simply not good enough. It is equal to most nations, including Scotland, and significantly weaker than any of the top nations.

Brovion · Jun 21, 2021

One Love said:
Old Scottish players all coming out banging on about how Scotland are now a brilliant team.

Why do they of all countries do this? They've been saying this about their rugby team for about a decade and they're still ranked 8th!

I don't know anyone who says England are brilliant or thinks it privately.

Only Scotland could be sitting on 1 point at the bottom of the group but be world beaters.

Absolutely. However Scotland are 'brilliant' by their standards. They go on about English arrogance but I've never met anybody over the last fifty years who has said "Yeah, we're gonna win it!" Yes you get newspaper talk, and a couple of people got over-excited about the 'Golden Generation', but amongst football fans, those who follow the game week in week out there's always been a level of realism. "We've got a chance" is probably the most gung-ho opinion you'll hear.

Frday's match was a poor game between two poor sides. It was a typical 'England Tournament' performance: insipid, disjointed and clueless. I understand the Scots joy that their collection of Championship players, MTL journeymen and Premier league fringe players were undoubtedly the better team on the night, putting the English superstars in their place, but on that showing I'll be amazed if either team reach the business end of the competition. Both will have to make huge improvements. England can (but probably won't). Scotland need to score a goal.

Commander · Jun 21, 2021

Brovion said:
Absolutely. However Scotland are 'brilliant' by their standards. They go on about English arrogance but I've never met anybody over the last fifty years who has said "Yeah, we're gonna win it!" Yes you get newspaper talk, and a couple of people got over-excited about the 'Golden Generation', but amongst football fans, those who follow the game week in week out there's always been a level of realism. "We've got a chance" is probably the most gung-ho opinion you'll hear.

Frday's match was a poor game between two poor sides. It was a typical 'England Tournament' performance: insipid, disjointed and clueless. I understand the Scots joy that their collection of Championship players, MTL journeymen and Premier league fringe players were undoubtedly the better team on the night, putting the English superstars in their place, but on that showing I'll be amazed if either team reach the business end of the competition. Both will have to make huge improvements. England can (but probably won't). Scotland need to score a goal.

All true. However, I do think people (myself included) are getting a bit carried away about that Scotland performance and what it means for the rest of the tournament. People love to hark back to the fantastic Euro 96 run, but in that tournament we drew with a crap Swiss team, scraped past Scotland, smashed a good Dutch team, would have lost 2-0 to an average Spanish team had the officials been any good, and then went out to a decent German team. So we had one really good performance, one good one, one OK one and two crap ones.

Portugal drew all three group games in the last Euros and won the tournament. England scraped through the group in Italia 90 by drawing against the Irish, nicking a win against the might of Egypt and drawing against the Dutch.

My point is, there is a hell of a long way to go, and if England thump the Czechs tomorrow night then it will all feel very different.

Brovion · Jun 21, 2021

Commander said:
All true. However, I do think people (myself included) are getting a bit carried away about that Scotland performance and what it means for the rest of the tournament. People love to hark back to the fantastic Euro 96 run, but in that tournament we drew with a crap Swiss team, scraped past Scotland, smashed a good Dutch team, would have lost 2-0 to an average Spanish team had the officials been any good, and then went out to a decent German team. So we had one really good performance, one good one, one OK one and two crap ones.

Portugal drew all three group games in the last Euros and won the tournament. England scraped through the group in Italia 90 by drawing against the Irish, nicking a win against the might of Egypt and drawing against the Dutch.

My point is, there is a hell of a long way to go, and if England thump the Czechs tomorrow night then it will all feel very different.

Oh I agree. And I'll admit that I'm still depressed over Friday's performance, and I know that previous winners have had their bad games at the Group stage, it's just that ..... well it's England and just for once I'd like us to be in a tournament where we don't stutter, struggle, occasionally shine - and then lose to the first decent team we meet.

zefarelly · Jun 21, 2021

Brovion said:
Oh I agree. And I'll admit that I'm still depressed over Friday's performance, and I know that previous winners have had their bad games at the Group stage, it's just that ..... well it's England and just for once I'd like us to be in a tournament where we don't stutter, struggle, occasionally shine - and then lose to the first decent team we meet.

I'm not depressed, Scotland played well. I watched from a fairly neutral standpoint.

It's England stuttering, struggling, occasionally shining - and then losing to the first decent team we meet is where we're at, and have been for ooh, about 50 years ?

Guinness Boy · Jun 21, 2021

Swansman said:
Tbh this is the weakest Swedish team in a long time and I think you would have a very good chance of winning.

The Scotland performance pretty much proved what I said before the tournament... the English midfield is simply not good enough. It is equal to most nations, including Scotland, and significantly weaker than any of the top nations.

Yep. Plus how to fit everyone in that CAN compete against the better sides. Something like....

Not Pickford

Walker Stones
James
Trippier

Sancho Sterling Mount Grealish Foden

Kane (or at least the one from a couple of months or so back)

I don't really like the balance of that side :lolol:

.

Given that, if Henderson is going to be fit I would be tempted to try him as a holder with Mount and Bellingham in a sort of 4-1-2-3 with Foden or Sancho, Calvert-Lewin and Grealish as the three furthest up.

I am at a loss of what to do with Phillips if we do go through. He was much better on a hot day against a good midfield than in the rain against an average one. Again makes me suspect tactics. But that doesn't mean I'm disputing your point. Phillips or Kante? Hmmmm

Weststander · Jun 21, 2021

Brovion said:
Oh I agree. And I'll admit that I'm still depressed over Friday's performance, and I know that previous winners have had their bad games at the Group stage, it's just that ..... well it's England and just for once I'd like us to be in a tournament where we don't stutter, struggle, occasionally shine - and then lose to the first decent team we meet.

I am too, a huge reality check, for me because the Germans and Italians look light years ahead of us.

We were told 20 plus years ago that:
- Huge FA investment.
- All the elite academies.
- Players playing every week with the world’s best.

Would close the gap.

Imho it hasn’t. Continental nations brimming with instinctively creative, forward thinking players who do that for 90 minutes every international game. Impossible to get the ball from, magicians.

Garry Nelson's Left Foot · Jun 21, 2021

Weststander said:
I am too, a huge reality check, for me because the Germans and Italians look light years ahead of us.

We were told 20 plus years ago that:
- Huge FA investment.
- All the elite academies.
- Players playing every week with the world’s best.

Would close the gap.

Imho it hasn’t. Continental nations brimming with instinctively creative, forward thinking players who do that for 90 minutes every international game. Impossible to get the ball from, magicians.

I think technically it has, to a point. Tactically, however...

I put the performance against Scotland down to Southgate. He got it massively wrong. If we'd gone out with a positive attitude form the start like we did against Croatia I think we would have won.

Psychobilly freakout · Jun 21, 2021

Garry Nelson's Left Foot said:
I put the performance against Scotland down to Southgate. He got it massively wrong. If we'd gone out with a positive attitude form the start like we did against Croatia I think we would have won.

This without a shadow of doubt, Southgate is tactically naive and somewhat inept, his persistence with certain players out of form or coming back from injury has found us out several times now, most noticeably in the semi finals against a team we should have beaten and again against bloody Scotland.

We will probably smash the Czech Republic, everyone will think we can win it again, and get taught a footballing lesson by Germany again and that will be that.

vagabond · Jun 21, 2021

Weststander said:
I am too, a huge reality check, for me because the Germans and Italians look light years ahead of us.

We were told 20 plus years ago that:
- Huge FA investment.
- All the elite academies.
- Players playing every week with the world’s best.

Would close the gap.

Imho it hasn’t. Continental nations brimming with instinctively creative, forward thinking players who do that for 90 minutes every international game. Impossible to get the ball from, magicians.

I think we have the players honestly.

Despite the last 2 England performances, If the likes of Kane, Foden, Rashford, Grealish, Sancho, Sterling, Mount, Rice, Greenwood etc went on sale tomorrow, every big club in world football would surely be interested.

Down to the manager ultimately to find the right blend of players, strategy and tactics. And I say that as someone who recognises Southgate is a brilliant statesman and brilliant with young players.

I will however reiterate people are still writing England’s obit a bit too soon. We’ve played badly in 2 games, got 4 points, haven’t conceded a goal and are set to qualify out the group.

Guinness Boy · Jun 21, 2021

vagabond said:
I think we have the players honestly.

Despite the last 2 England performances, If the likes of Kane, Foden, Rashford, Grealish, Sancho, Sterling, Mount, Rice, Greenwood etc went on sale tomorrow, every big club in world football would surely be interested.

Down to the manager ultimately to find the right blend of players, strategy and tactics. And I say that as someone who recognises Southgate is a brilliant statesman and brilliant with young players.

I will however reiterate people are still writing England’s obit a bit too soon. We’ve played badly in 2 games, got 4 points, haven’t conceded a goal and are set to qualify out the group.

Foden, Rashford, Sancho, Sterling, Mount and Greenwood are all at big clubs already, though Greenwood isn't a regular. Kane is about to transfer to a big club. Rice? Already at his level. Give me Bissouma any day of the week.

And you can't play all six of those "big club" players in the starting XI and keep it tactically balanced.

We do have World Class players wide and at AM but we have some distinctly average ones in our spine.

Weststander · Jun 21, 2021

vagabond said:
I think we have the players honestly.

Despite the last 2 England performances, If the likes of Kane, Foden, Rashford, Grealish, Sancho, Sterling, Mount, Rice, Greenwood etc went on sale tomorrow, every big club in world football would surely be interested.

Down to the manager ultimately to find the right blend of players, strategy and tactics. And I say that as someone who recognises Southgate is a brilliant statesman and brilliant with young players.

I will however reiterate people are still writing England’s obit a bit too soon. We’ve played badly in 2 games, got 4 points, haven’t conceded a goal and are set to qualify out the group.

I know they’re very good players, but pre-pandemic finances, were Real, Barca and PSG in a dog fight to sign them?

Due to the tried n tested English player aspect, prices are over inflated. Rice is always touted as £100m, that’s silly.

Players such as Modric, Immobile, Kante, diver Fernandes, Mbappe, Insigne to me seem incredible technicians with everything, who show it for 90 minutes at the highest level, running international games.

I think we lack that.

zefarelly · Jun 21, 2021

11 super-duper players doesn't make a good team, especially with a below par part time manager.

England seem to have 3 excellent players each for 5 positions and bang average ones in the squad for the rest.

Iggle Piggle · Jun 21, 2021

Weststander said:
I am too, a huge reality check, for me because the Germans and Italians look light years ahead of us.

We were told 20 plus years ago that:
- Huge FA investment.
- All the elite academies.
- Players playing every week with the world’s best.

Would close the gap.

Imho it hasn’t. Continental nations brimming with instinctively creative, forward thinking players who do that for 90 minutes every international game. Impossible to get the ball from, magicians.

We've produced a huge number of young players in recent years and won one of the world cups in the younger age groups - It is bearing fruit and the quality young players at Southgate's disposal is huge. Foden, Mount, Sancho, Bellingham even Grealish who feels like he has been around for years is only 25. These players would all make the German squad and I believe the Germans have even tried to copy our youth development schemes given the amount we are churning out.

Southgate is the issue for me. 2 holding midfielders against Scotland, an over reliance on an out of form Sterling and an inability to settle on his full backs as well as not playing to our strengths (i.e our forwards).

Nixonator · Jun 21, 2021

Piss poor manager, recruited as a yes man after the Big Sam fiasco and touted as picking players on form, rather than reputation.

That didn't last very long, if it wasn't bollocks for starters - the best that can be said is he picked youth over experience, often poorly.

Glaringly obvious we are going to get sent packing in the first game against a decent side, which looks like it will be the first knockout round if we overcome the czechs (not a given). If we don't then I wouldn't be surprised if Sweden turn us over - they don't concede often (we can't score) and that Izak lad looks a handful.

Now I've said my piece we'll probably go onto win the thing, but that won't be because of Gareth Southgate.

hans kraay fan club · Jun 21, 2021

Weststander said:
I know they’re very good players, but pre-pandemic finances, were Real, Barca and PSG in a dog fight to sign them?

Due to the tried n tested English player aspect, prices are over inflated. Rice is always touted as £100m, that’s silly.

Players such as Modric, Immobile, Kante, diver Fernandes, Mbappe, Insigne to me seem incredible technicians with everything, who show it for 90 minutes at the highest level, running international games.

I think we lack that.

Modric was completely ineffective against England, and Fernandes was shockingly poor in the Portugal - Germany game.

Contrary to popular belief other teams' players do sometimes underperform, too!

Uter · Jun 21, 2021

Iggle Piggle said:
We've produced a huge number of young players in recent years and won one of the world cups in the younger age groups - It is bearing fruit and the quality young players at Southgate's disposal is huge. Foden, Mount, Sancho, Bellingham even Grealish who feels like he has been around for years is only 25. These players would all make the German squad and I believe the Germans have even tried to copy our youth development schemes given the amount we are churning out.

Southgate is the issue for me. 2 holding midfielders against Scotland, an over reliance on an out of form Sterling and an inability to settle on his full backs as well as not playing to our strengths (i.e our forwards).

Very much agree with this.

Whatever level of technical ability you have at your disposal, a tactically astute manager or coach is important. Witness Boothroyd's repeated dismal failures at U21 finals with many of the same players that brought us wins at U19 Euros, U20 World Cup and U17 World Cup, the latter won with noteworthy panache.

Much as I like Southgate as a person, I am less and less convinced by him tactically. He seems to have tunnel vision on team formation and tactics which means some immensely gifted players are perennially side-lined. We seem to be finding goals harder and harder to come by.

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[Football] We only want a point against the Czech Republic

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