[Politics] Ballymurphy

Harry Wilson's tackle · May 13, 2021

1971.

Anyone of our elder gentlemen in the forces there at the time?

The channel 4 documentary is quite disturbing. Institutionalised complete and utter failure to have the first clue what the **** we were doing. Except 'let's shoot some Catholics; it worked with the wogs in Kenya, so it's bound to work with this lot, whoever they are, or whetever it is they are getting uppity about'.

:down:

Horses Arse · May 13, 2021

Sadly not an isolated case either

Shropshire Seagull · May 13, 2021

Fighting terrorism is a thankless task and sadly there will be collateral damage on both sides.
I'm certainly not advocating that two wrongs make a right.
If only there was an easy solution to worldwide religious disputes.

Icy Gull · May 13, 2021

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
1971.

Anyone of our elder gentlemen in the forces there at the time?

The channel 4 documentary is quite disturbing. Institutionalised complete and utter failure to have the first clue what the **** we were doing. Except 'let's shoot some Catholics; it worked with the wogs in Kenya, so it's bound to work with this lot, whoever they are, or whetever it is they are getting uppity about'.

Going completely off topic, if you have an interest in the Mau Mau Insurrection, you should give this excellent and disturbing book a read :thumbsup:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/338687.Something_Of_Value

Fignon's Ponytail · May 13, 2021

Although later than the 1970s when it was at its worst, my brother in law spent some time in N.I with the RAF, and said it was the scariest place hes served. And hes been to the Balkans, Iraq, etc. during some pretty heavy fighting.

highflyer · May 13, 2021

Icy Gull said:
Going completely off topic, if you have an interest in the Mau Mau Insurrection, you should give this excellent and disturbing book a read

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/338687.Something_Of_Value

Anyone interested in gaining a more complete understanding of Britain's occupation of Kenya should read this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Britains-Gulag-Brutal-Empire-Kenya/dp/1844135489

Also, btw, nobody I ever knew in Kenya ever called it the Mau Mau 'insurrection'. I see that phrase as part of the way History gets re-wrritten through propaganda (as the book linked to above explains)

It was a war of Independence.

Icy Gull · May 13, 2021

highflyer said:
Anyone interested in gaining a more complete understanding of Britain's occupation of Kenya should read this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Britains-Gulag-Brutal-Empire-Kenya/dp/1844135489

Also, btw, nobody I ever knew in Kenya ever called it the Mau Mau 'insurrection'. I see that phrase as part of the way History gets re-wrritten through propaganda (as the book linked to above explains)

It was a war of Independence.

I thought it was an uprising but as the guff said Insurrection that is what I typed but it did cross my mind that it was the first time I had seen it referred to as such. Anyway Something Of Value was written by Robert Ruark who had in depth knowledge of what he wrote about. I found it fascinating, having spent quite a bit of my young life living in colonial Africa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ruark

highflyer · May 13, 2021

Icy Gull said:
I thought it was an uprising but as the guff said Insurrection that is what I typed but it did cross my mind that it was the first time I had seen it referred to as such. Anyway Something Of Value was written by Robert Ruark who had in depth knowledge of what he wrote about. I found it fascinating, having spent quite a bit of my young life living in colonial Africa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ruark

It always seems to be referred to as an insurrection, and for most of my life I accepted that, based on what I was told, by family and teachers. But (having finally been made to think about it properly) that word implies a challenge to legitimate authority. Which is not really the case. For most Kenyans, it was a struggle for independence from illegitimate occupiers.

Dick Swiveller · May 13, 2021

What's the story in Ballymurphy? Wouldn't you like to know?

schmunk · May 13, 2021

Dick Swiveller said:
What's the story in Ballymurphy? Wouldn't you like to know?

View attachment 136699

I was going to make that joke as the second post on this thread, but thought it a little... errr.... tasteless.

Dick Swiveller · May 13, 2021

schmunk said:
I was going to make that joke as the second post on this thread, but thought it a little... errr.... tasteless.

Puns to be added to the list of things that are bad taste. Noted.

schmunk · May 13, 2021

Dick Swiveller said:
Puns to be added to the list of things that are bad taste. Noted.

Did you actually read the OP?

Muhammed - I’m hard - Bruce Lee · May 13, 2021

Not there in 1971, but was in Enniskillen in 1978 and again in 1980.
NI affected me mentally that I still have not recovered from to this day. I still react to certain noises / situations unlike any normal person would.
Funnily enough, the Falklands war some years later was like a breath of fresh air, at least you could actually SEE who was shooting at you.

southampton seagull · May 13, 2021

18 yrs old Belfast 1974. Not nice

Harry Wilson's tackle · May 13, 2021

Muhammed (im hard) Bruce Lee said:
Not there in 1971, but was in Enniskillen in 1978 and again in 1980.
NI affected me mentally that I still have not recovered from to this day. I still react to certain noises / situations unlike any normal person would.
Funnily enough, the Falklands war some years later was like a breath of fresh air, at least you could actually SEE who was shooting at you.

Sorry to hear that :down:

I know the quote 'politics is war by other means' but attempting to resolve a political situation with military intervention and no mental picture of what success would look like is surely doomed. Has there been a military intervention anywhere in the world in the last 50 years that could be described as having a clear and attainable objective? 'Peacekeeping' must be the most grisly of the lot. My best wishes.

faoileán · May 14, 2021

Shropshire Seagull said:
Fighting terrorism is a thankless task and sadly there will be collateral damage on both sides.
I'm certainly not advocating that two wrongs make a right.
If only there was an easy solution to worldwide religious disputes.

I get your sentiment but the point about the Ballymurphy massacre and a few months later Bloody Sunday was that they poured petrol on what were civil rights protests (not terrorism) and empowered the IRA to start a terrorist war. Out of control paras (or maybe they were under control?) shooting dozens of unarmed protesters was not fighting terrorism; it created the situation where terrorism became the next logical step to those people in Derry and Belfast in a David versus Goliath scenario.

marcos3263 · May 14, 2021

Muhammed (im hard) Bruce Lee said:
Not there in 1971, but was in Enniskillen in 1978 and again in 1980.
NI affected me mentally that I still have not recovered from to this day. I still react to certain noises / situations unlike any normal person would.
Funnily enough, the Falklands war some years later was like a breath of fresh air, at least you could actually SEE who was shooting at you.

My dad was at both and said similar - He said NI was frightening as he had kids spitting at him and you couldn't tell who was the 'enemy'

He was Royal engineers so rebuilt Port Stanley airstrip and just saw dead penguins - a much more black and white war (and not just the penguins)

B-right-on · May 14, 2021

faoileán said:
I get your sentiment but the point about the Ballymurphy massacre and a few months later Bloody Sunday was that they poured petrol on what were civil rights protests (not terrorism) and empowered the IRA to start a terrorist war. Out of control paras (or maybe they were under control?) shooting dozens of unarmed protesters was not fighting terrorism; it created the situation where terrorism became the next logical step to those people in Derry and Belfast in a David versus Goliath scenario.

This. My old man was an Irish Catholic and was anti-IRA but always maintained that the actions of the UK Govt /army generated the IRA. Without those actions, the IRA wouldn't have got the support it got.

Harry Wilson's tackle · May 14, 2021

faoileán said:
I get your sentiment but the point about the Ballymurphy massacre and a few months later Bloody Sunday was that they poured petrol on what were civil rights protests (not terrorism) and empowered the IRA to start a terrorist war. Out of control paras (or maybe they were under control?) shooting dozens of unarmed protesters was not fighting terrorism; it created the situation where terrorism became the next logical step to those people in Derry and Belfast in a David versus Goliath scenario.

That's what it looked like to me as a 13 year old kid, watching the news, at the time.

In 1972 this record was released:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0zGVVcsbPg

That's Sir Paul, supporting IRA murderers.

Except he wasn't, because they hadn't yet started.....they needed an excuse, and the support (tacit or otherwise) of their community and, as noted above, 'the Brits' gave them what they wanted.

I have sometimes wondered whether this was deliberate planning on 'our' part (provoke the IRA and use this as a justification for a clamp down) or simply a massive balls up triggered by stupic arrogant military leaders, like the one in the programme. Conspiracy or cock up? I don't know. My money would be on the latter.

Once the genie was out of the bottle . . . well, many more lives were destroyed. Tragic.

BiffyBoy100 · May 14, 2021

I wonder how history would have played out if we never sent the British Army over? - The IRA has obviously been around for years, as had the UVF, with the UDA forming after the British Army's entrance...

Would it have been a complete blood bath? or would things have come to a resolution quicker without our involvement?

We certainly provided the IRA with great recruiting tools, Thatchers policy on the hunger strikers, Bobby Sands etc.

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