[Football] The ESL debt figures.

Mo Gosfield · Apr 23, 2021

The 12 proposed founding members total debt = £7.41bn

1) Tottenham.......£1.177bn
2) Barca..............£ 1.030bn
3) Atletico............£804m
4) Man Utd..........£771m
5) Inter................£757m
6) Juve................£752m
7) Real Madrid....£651m
8) Arsenal...........£405m
9) Liverpool.........£386m
10) Milan.............£247m
11) Chelsea.........£224m
12) Man City........£202m

Total debt of Liverpool + City + Chelsea + Arsenal = £1.217bn ( Tottenham = £1.177bn )

Looks like some of them needed it a bit more than others!

Brok · Apr 23, 2021

Good. F**k them.

schmunk · Apr 23, 2021

Most of Spurs' debt is tied up in their new stadium, at very reasonable terms, so they're relatively better off compared to some of the others. A DULLARD could tell you more.

Mo Gosfield · Apr 23, 2021

schmunk said:
Most of Spurs' debt is tied up in their new stadium, at very reasonable terms, so they're relatively better off compared to some of the others. A DULLARD could tell you more.

Ok....for the benefit of us DULLARDS then, perhaps you could re-evaluate Tottenham's debt.

The Andy Naylor Fan Club · Apr 23, 2021

Their stadium cost £1.2 billion according to Google. So going by the figures you posted they are £23million in credit.

Shropshire Seagull · Apr 23, 2021

schmunk said:
Most of Spurs' debt is tied up in their new stadium, at very reasonable terms, so they're relatively better off compared to some of the others. A DULLARD could tell you more.

Even if the mortgage on your house was at 0.01% it's still a debt on an asset that you don't actually own ....

Not owning an asset is okay if the asset can be easily sold - but I suspect the market for north-London sports stadia is a tad saturated now?
So, cost of stadia £1b but VALUE of stadia an awful lot less - doesn't make for a good balance sheet.

blue-shifted · Apr 23, 2021

schmunk said:
Most of Spurs' debt is tied up in their new stadium, at very reasonable terms, so they're relatively better off compared to some of the others. A DULLARD could tell you more.

But it's still £1.17bn on reasonable terms.

They're going under

It might take a year or two and i'm sure they'll do the Palace resurrection technique. But they will be the first of the 9 pins which go

schmunk · Apr 23, 2021

As I noted above, and referencing a random DULLARD of this parish*:

"But Maguire believes clever financial management on the part of Daniel Levy and co means that Tottenham are actually in a very good place financially, despite the eye-watering loan debt.

“It will be hurting them,” he told Football Insider when asked about the financial implications of not being allowed to have fans at their new stadium.

“But the deal they’ve got from the Bank of England in terms of the loan, borrowing the money at 0.5% interest is really clever. It means they won’t have any problems in the short term in terms of paying outstanding instalments, transfers, the wage bill and things of that nature."

£175M of the loan is from the Bank of England at 0.5% interest!

£637M is from banks on relatively low (not that low) interest-only terms, repayable in 2037 (and probably extendable even then).

The rest?? I don't know but it will again be easily serviced from their guaranteed* income.

* subject to staying in the PL...

Lower West Stander · Apr 23, 2021

Debt numbers on their own are absolutely meaningless.

They cannot be measured without knowing the ability to service interest and amortisation costs in a proper cashflow statement. EP points this out when looking at the cost of the debt Spurs have taken on. What's the LTV on the stadium for example?

Additionally - how do you define debt? Is it secured or unsecured? What about shareholder loans? Maturity? Covenants?

Just chucking out numbers without proper details is too Daily Mail for me...

studio150 · Apr 23, 2021

1 point deduction for each £10m of debt, each season. That should focus the teams to bring their debt levels down,

Wozza · Apr 23, 2021

The Man Utd owners get paid dividends despite their gigantic debts.

Distributable profits are calculated in accordance with the relevant accounting rules - which, of course, have nothing to do with whether or not the company is in debt.

I say "of course" but I'm blagging this. I have no idea about this stuff. Or any great desire to find out.

Goldstone1976 · Apr 23, 2021

I imagine it would. Spurs will start next season on minus 117 points.

Sounds fair enough to me.

Blue Valkyrie · Apr 23, 2021

Best tighten those belts.

Garry Nelson's Left Foot · Apr 23, 2021

As a comparison, what is our official debt? I know most(all?) of it is to TB and gets converted into shares after so many years but it would be nice to see if our debt is big enough to get us considered as one of Europe's leading clubs.

SAC · Apr 23, 2021

studio150 said:
1 point deduction for each £10m of debt, each season. That should focus the teams to bring their debt levels down,

So you want to start the season on -20 points?

Weststander · Apr 23, 2021

Mo Gosfield said:
The 12 proposed founding members total debt = £7.41bn

1) Tottenham.......£1.177bn
2) Barca..............£ 1.030bn
3) Atletico............£804m
4) Man Utd..........£771m
5) Inter................£757m
6) Juve................£752m
7) Real Madrid....£651m
8) Arsenal...........£405m
9) Liverpool.........£386m
10) Milan.............£247m
11) Chelsea.........£224m
12) Man City........£202m

Total debt of Liverpool + City + Chelsea + Arsenal = £1.217bn ( Tottenham = £1.177bn )

Looks like some of them needed it a bit more than others!

There's debt and there's other debt.

ManC, Chelsea and Brighton (£303m @ 31 May 20 for us) have interest free loans from owners, who at the drop of a hat can convert it to share capital, and they do periodically.

Liverpool's only debts at 31 May 19 were, similarly, a £79m interest free loan in effect from the owners to build the new main stand and a £50m bank loan = £129m in total. Has 13 months of lockdown added £257m of debt, when annual matchday income pre-pandemic was £84m?

Although much of ManU's debt is owed to the Glazer's, they pay themselves interest of £27m and £23m in dividends.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Apr 23, 2021

Garry Nelson's Left Foot said:
As a comparison, what is our official debt? I know most(all?) of it is to TB and gets converted into shares after so many years but it would be nice to see if our debt is big enough to get us considered as one of Europe's leading clubs.

Are you thinking we may be able to sneak into ESL 1.1 via the back door of massive (indeed outstanding) debt?

Uter · Apr 23, 2021

Garry Nelson's Left Foot said:
As a comparison, what is our official debt? I know most(all?) of it is to TB and gets converted into shares after so many years but it would be nice to see if our debt is big enough to get us considered as one of Europe's leading clubs.

Weststander · Apr 23, 2021

Wozza said:
The Man Utd owners get paid dividends despite their gigantic debts.

Distributable profits are calculated in accordance with the relevant accounting rules - which, of course, have nothing to do with whether or not the company is in debt.

I say "of course" but I'm blagging this. I have no idea about this stuff. Or any great desire to find out.

They earn both interest on the debt, and dividends on their shares.

ManU fans have documented this since 2005.

Both add up to over £1b and growing.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/english-soccer/half-a-billion-debt-but-dividends-galore-the-glazers-legacy-at-manchester-united-1.4054282

Whilst Bloom, Fenway Sports Group, Abramovich and Mansour haven’t drawn a penny.

Weststander · Apr 23, 2021

Uter said:
View attachment 136101

Accurate, as at the date of audited accounts.

But the figures will grow once the effect of 2020/21 lockdown washes through.

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