[Brighton] Graham Potter

Guinness Boy · Apr 16, 2021

Icy Gull said:
we are now competing with everyone rather than shitting ourselves and sticking everyone behind the ball. Would I rather end up 16th and stink the division out or would I rather be entertained and give ourselves a chance but still end up 16th. Feck yeah, but you go ahead and scream away.

I think TB needs to get some of the flak if you really feel the need to complain about the speed of our improvement. From my perspective I have no complaints about either, we’ll get there.

That we weren't "competing with everyone" is complete revisionism.

In Hughton's first season in the PL we beat Man Utd and Arsenal at home, beat West Ham 6-1 on aggregate in doing the double over them and drew at home to Everton and Spurs, We deployed a low block against Man City because everyone below 10th did that season but we attacked Chelsea at home with wingbacks and the Greyhound on a licence to thrill, though it lost us the game 4-0. We had a dig at Liverpool and got taken to bits by Coutinho.

The difference was probably in how we tackled those below us. Swansea were dispatched 4-1 and West Brom 3-1 in the first season. It was the capitulations to Cardiff and Bournemouth that lost CH his job.

There are other anomalies of course. Many complained about CH's approach away, yet Potter has won FAR too few home games. CH was better against Palace, which are the two games that personally mean most to me each season as a fan. The one time CH attacked them we lost 3-2. He didn't make that mistake again.

A lot of our "too open" mistakes in that era were due to playing the Greyhound. Both Lamptey and Veltman are infinitely better players, and only available to Potter.

albionalex · Apr 16, 2021

Icy Gull said:
Well it beats moaning about how much he does wrong, in your opinion, given the complete turnaround in how we play. I love watching us and look for the good, you just seem to look for the negatives. We are all different

In short, he’s not done too much wrong imo

I am in 100% agreement that he's not done much wrong.

But some of us like myself and Guinness Boy have a balanced view and recognize both the good and not so good.

Weststander · Apr 16, 2021

Guinness Boy said:
That we weren't "competing with everyone" is complete revisionism.

In Hughton's first season in the PL we beat Man Utd and Arsenal at home, beat West Ham 6-1 on aggregate in doing the double over them and drew at home to Everton and Spurs, We deployed a low block against Man City because everyone below 10th did that season but we attacked Chelsea at home with wingbacks and the Greyhound on a licence to thrill, though it lost us the game 4-0. We had a dig at Liverpool and got taken to bits by Coutinho.

The difference was probably in how we tackled those below us. Swansea were dispatched 4-1 and West Brom 3-1 in the first season. It was the capitulations to Cardiff and Bournemouth that lost CH his job.

There are other anomalies of course. Many complained about CH's approach away, yet Potter has won FAR too few home games. CH was better against Palace, which are the two games that personally mean most to me each season as a fan. The one time CH attacked them we lost 3-2. He didn't make that mistake again.

A lot of our "too open" mistakes in that era were due to playing the Greyhound. Both Lamptey and Veltman are infinitely better players, and only available to Potter.

Genuinely not a rhetorical question or trap .... why else do you think CH lost his job, other than two particular losses from 76 EPL games?

Separately, I think I recall (not picking on you .... I took it as extra validation at the time of the shit we were watching), both [MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION] and you skipped the odd home EPL fixture between Feb and May 19. Simply because you couldn’t face the shocking football and likely loss. Of course, correct me if I’ve got you mixed up with someone else.

Personally and I respected CH hugely, the home games in those final 4 months were the turning point. Even my ever positive lad and Albion fanatic, was sickened by the awful football and relegation rivals outplaying us one by one at The Amex.

Guinness Boy · Apr 16, 2021

Weststander said:
Genuinely not a rhetorical question or trap .... why else do you think CH lost his job, other than two particular losses from 76 EPL games?

Separately, I think I recall (not picking on you .... I took it as extra validation at the time of the shit we were watching), both [MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION] and you skipped the odd home EPL fixture between Feb and May 19. Simply because you couldn’t face the shocking football and likely loss. Of course, correct me if I’ve got you mixed up with someone else.

Personally and I respected CH hugely, the home games in those final 4 months were the turning point. Even my ever positive lad and Albion fanatic, was sickened by the awful football and relegation rivals outplaying us one by one at The Amex.

I can't cover every single home game from that last four months but they were mostly awful and I was mostly there. There are others if you want to bring them up. The first half against Newcastle - when we knew a win would keep us safe - was unforgivable. I moved to "Hughton out" from "fence" at some point during that run and I did miss Bournemouth due to meeting friends who were down for the weekend for the marathon I was competing in, rather then "m'eh". My son and two best mates went and told me the blow by blow and I watched, through my fingers, on MOTD. I certainly might have posted I was happy to have missed it live - I was.

That wasn't remotely my point though. CH went to "grind out any point you can" when we needed every point we could get and was more cautious than Potter, by a long way, away from home. But we did NOT park the bus at home to any big side except City, and, with the squad we had, attacking Chelsea and Liverpool in the first season was foolhardy. Potter's paradox is that he can't put away the easy teams at home.

Seasidesage · Apr 16, 2021

It's not revisionist to say that we were awful after Christmas in Hughton's last season and had the league been a couple of games longer we would have gone down. You say we have better options at RFB now and that is true, but the Greyhound was a liability in a four and Chris was never going to change tactics or try something different to minimise that. We played the same regardless week in week out. That is the manager choice and you live or die on your decisions but... Overall Chris Houghton did a great job for this club and if we were voting on our greatest ever manager tomorrow he would get my vote but it had run its course and a change was essential.

Potter is still early days but for me and the majority of our fans we are playing better football and progressing on the pitch. It's a work in progress and we may take steps back as well as forward but the majority of steps so far are forward and I think/hope that our best years as a club are those immediately in front of us now. TB took the brave step to recognize that the direction of the club and the squad/manager we had had taken us as far as it could go and I for one thought that took some courage.

It is still up in the air but all the signs are that it was the right decision...

Icy Gull · Apr 16, 2021

albionalex said:
I am in 100% agreement that he's not done much wrong.

But some of us like myself and Guinness Boy have a balanced view and recognize both the good and not so good.

[MENTION=616]Guinness Boy[/MENTION] is more In, Fence and Out than a tarts knickers go up and down though :lolol:

You just look for the negatives rather than the positives

I am just a dyed in the wool Potter fanboy

It’s great isn’t it :smile:

Guinness Boy · Apr 16, 2021

Icy Gull said:
[MENTION=616]Guinness Boy[/MENTION] is more In, Fence and Out than a tarts knickers go up and down though

You just look for the negatives rather than the positives

I am just a dyed in the wool Potter fanboy

It’s great isn’t it

I'd have got rid of him at the turn of the year. There's no point me pretending I wouldn't as it's all over here and whatsapp. I wouldn't get rid of him today so, in that, my impatience has been proved wrong. Again, I'm happy to admit that, and can hardly pretend otherwise.

But I do have two very consistent points that are as true today as when I first made them. Firstly he will only go when he or Tony decide, not the fans, so all the polls on here are just a talking shop used to shoehorn people into camps. Secondly, him leaving wouldn't be the end of the world.

Icy Gull · Apr 16, 2021

Guinness Boy said:
I'd have got rid of him at the turn of the year. There's no point me pretending I wouldn't as it's all over here and whatsapp. I wouldn't get rid of him today so, in that, my impatience has been proved wrong. Again, I'm happy to admit that, and can hardly pretend otherwise.

But I do have two very consistent points that are as true today as when I first made them. Firstly he will only go when he or Tony decide, not the fans, so all the polls on here are just a talking shop used to shoehorn people into camps. Secondly, him leaving wouldn't be the end of the world.

All us NSC Ins and Outs should have a MEAT UP for the last game of the season, either after the match in the ground or in a Pub :thumbsup:

It would be fun, whatever our feelings we are all ardent Albion fans

Guinness Boy · Apr 16, 2021

Seasidesage said:
It's not revisionist to say that we were awful after Christmas in Hughton's last season and had the league been a couple of games longer we would have gone down. You say we have better options at RFB now and that is true, but the Greyhound was a liability in a four and Chris was never going to change tactics or try something different to minimise that. We played the same regardless week in week out. .

Not quite true,

As I said, we played with wingbacks against Chelsea at home. We gave them a really good game in some ways but we also lost 4-0. I did the Albion Roar that followed that game and we spent a long time on how Duffy was totally unsuitable in a 3 CBs with wingbacks role.

At that point CH had a choice. Change tack completely and adopt a more "Potterball" approach, or go back to what was working. Given that Duffy was fairly much our fans' favourite, had a partnership with Dunk that inspired a t-shirt, and that losing 4-0 every week in an entertaining fashion wasn't what TB had asked him to do, it's little wonder we reverted back to 4-1-4-1 and thrashed West Ham and Swansea in our next two home games.

Weststander · Apr 16, 2021

Seasidesage said:
It's not revisionist to say that we were awful after Christmas in Hughton's last season and had the league been a couple of games longer we would have gone down. You say we have better options at RFB now and that is true, but the Greyhound was a liability in a four and Chris was never going to change tactics or try something different to minimise that. We played the same regardless week in week out. That is the manager tchoice and you live or die on your decisions but... Overall Chris Houghton did a great job for this club and if we were voting on our greatest ever manager tomorrow he would get my vote but it had run its course and a change was essential.

Potter is still early days but for me and the majority of our fans we are playing better football and progressing on the pitch. It's a work in progress and we may take steps back as well as forward but the majority of steps so far are forward and I think/hope that our best years as a club are those immediately in front of us now. TB took the brave step to recognize that the direction of the club and the squad/manager we had had taken us as far as it could go and I for one thought that took some courage.

It is still up in the air but all the signs are that it was the right decision...

My views are very similar, good post.

Weststander · Apr 16, 2021

Icy Gull said:
All us NSC Ins and Outs should have a MEAT UP for the last game of the season, either after the match in the ground or in a Pub

It would be fun, whatever our feelings we are all ardent Albion fans

Burying those faux NSC Porter “olive branches”. :lolol:

Icy Gull · Apr 16, 2021

Weststander said:
Burying those faux NSC Porter “olive branches”.

**** that, I have just bought an olive tree

Guinness Boy · Apr 16, 2021

Icy Gull said:
All us NSC Ins and Outs should have a MEAT UP for the last game of the season, either after the match in the ground or in a Pub

It would be fun, whatever our feelings we are all ardent Albion fans

Curry hun? xx

lol

Seriously, I would MUCH rather discuss this over a few pints and would be more than happy to get them in. When we were allowed to go I used to meet a huge number of different people for a chinwag over a beer afterwards, and we never agreed but we never fell out.

I will back up any football opinion I have face to face - let's hope we can from next season on.

Weststander · Apr 16, 2021

Guinness Boy said:
Curry hun? xx

lol

Seriously, I would MUCH rather discuss this over a few pints and would be more than happy to get them in. When we were allowed to go I used to meet a huge number of different people for a chinwag over a beer afterwards, and we never agreed but we never fell out.

I will back up any football opinion I have face to face - let's hope we can from next season on.

“Face to face” is normally used in NSC as:

“I suggest we meet face to face to discuss this further, pal, pm sent”.

Guinness Boy · Apr 16, 2021

Weststander said:
“Face to face” is normally used in NSC as:

“I suggest we meet face to face to discuss this further, pal, pm sent”.

Yeah, good point.

I would be more than happy to discuss this face to face politely, non-violently, alcoholically and for as long as it damn well took for everyone to agree I was right :drink:

Bozza · Apr 16, 2021

keaton said:
My Google suggestions has had some random websites (Football index?) suggesting Potter will get the sack and we're after Eddie Howe.

Unsurprisingly, that is absolute bollocks* according to my source at the club.

* - they didn't use this specific term

Weststander · Apr 16, 2021

Unless TB throws a curve ball in May, Potter’s NSC disparagers are in for extended pain.

Next manager to leave odds:

Machiavelli · Apr 16, 2021

Seasidesage said:
It's not revisionist to say that we were awful after Christmas in Hughton's last season and had the league been a couple of games longer we would have gone down. You say we have better options at RFB now and that is true, but the Greyhound was a liability in a four and Chris was never going to change tactics or try something different to minimise that. We played the same regardless week in week out. That is the manager choice and you live or die on your decisions but... Overall Chris Houghton did a great job for this club and if we were voting on our greatest ever manager tomorrow he would get my vote but it had run its course and a change was essential.

Potter is still early days but for me and the majority of our fans we are playing better football and progressing on the pitch. It's a work in progress and we may take steps back as well as forward but the majority of steps so far are forward and I think/hope that our best years as a club are those immediately in front of us now. TB took the brave step to recognize that the direction of the club and the squad/manager we had had taken us as far as it could go and I for one thought that took some courage.

It is still up in the air but all the signs are that it was the right decision...

Another excellent post. And we weren't that good in the first half of that season either. And I went to Newcastle, and was at the home game at Wolves, and pretty sure I was at the other game we won 1-0 too. We were poor in the 2018/19 season, and dropped calamitously in 2019.
And [MENTION=616]Guinness Boy[/MENTION] keeps saying that Potter has a much better squad than CH. Well, Potter has made it that way (we might add DA in there too -- I won't exclude Bloom from this either). He's promoted players from the DS. He hasn't had vast sums of money to spend compared to CH either. He's transformed the whole ethos of the club and, within 18 months, we've become a club with assets, with exciting players coming through that so many of us would be delighted to see live in the flesh.

Guinness Boy · Apr 17, 2021

Machiavelli said:
Another excellent post. And we weren't that good in the first half of that season either. And I went to Newcastle, and was at the home game at Wolves, and pretty sure I was at the other game we won 1-0 too. We were poor in the 2018/19 season, and dropped calamitously in 2019.
And [MENTION=616]Guinness Boy[/MENTION] keeps saying that Potter has a much better squad than CH. Well, Potter has made it that way (we might add DA in there too -- I won't exclude Bloom from this either). He's promoted players from the DS. He hasn't had vast sums of money to spend compared to CH either. He's transformed the whole ethos of the club and, within 18 months, we've become a club with assets, with exciting players coming through that so many of us would be delighted to see live in the flesh.

I won't disagree that the recruitment in the Ashworth era has been better. It's plain to see. Lamptey and Veltman are both far better than Montoya and Schellotto and Lallana and Welbeck far better than Locadia and Ali J. Bissoima and March have been better used, I rate Webster above Duffy (though the vast majority of Brighton fans wouldn't have wanted Duffy to go anywhere in and after that first Prem season, he was adored).I don't think Trossard is necessarily much better than Knockaert but what they have in common is that they are the creative one needed in each respective system. Knocky picked locks for CH, Tross does it for Potter.

But that does leave two elephants in the room.

Firstly recruitment under CH wasn't uniquely terrible. Gross is our best ever buy. Izquierdo, pre injury was better than an awful lot of other lower half PL players. And Andone is only a problem in the "no dickheads" sense. Again, pre-injury, he's at least as good as Maupay. I know you haven't said that it was but the point is that DA and GP have evolved, rather than transforming recruitment. And was CH really so inflexible that he wouldn't have wanted or used a Lamptey, Webster or Lallana? I suppose we'll never know. The question of whether Hughton's style was down to the players he had or the players were down to hs style has never been satisfactorily answered, since in The Championship he ground out with Sami's awful squad but then attacked when given some weaponry. What is clear to me is that, in my opinion, he and DA couldn't work together.

Secondly this does also leave DA and GP on the hook for the thing that so many of us agree is the problem - players who can't finish. And that's really my point all season. We are under achieving on results because of far too many missed chances. There are way too many on here who try to push the line that GP is responsible for all of the good stuff and the players for all of the bad stuff. It was exactly what GP's defenders were saying during the bad run over Christmas and New Year. It's a shared responsibility, surely?

KeegansHairPiece · Apr 17, 2021

Guinness Boy said:
I won't disagree that the recruitment in the Ashworth era has been better. It's plain to see. Lamptey and Veltman are both far better than Montoya and Schellotto and Lallana and Welbeck far better than Locadia and Ali J. Bissoima and March have been better used, I rate Webster above Duffy (though the vast majority of Brighton fans wouldn't have wanted Duffy to go anywhere in and after that first Prem season, he was adored).I don't think Trossard is necessarily much better than Knockaert but what they have in common is that they are the creative one needed in each respective system. Knocky picked locks for CH, Tross does it for Potter.

But that does leave two elephants in the room.

Firstly recruitment under CH wasn't uniquely terrible. Gross is our best ever buy. Izquierdo, pre injury was better than an awful lot of other lower half PL players. And Andone is only a problem in the "no dickheads" sense. Again, pre-injury, he's at least as good as Maupay. I know you haven't said that it was but the point is that DA and GP have evolved, rather than transforming recruitment. And was CH really so inflexible that he wouldn't have wanted or used a Lamptey, Webster or Lallana? I suppose we'll never know. The question of whether Hughton's style was down to the players he had or the players were down to hs style has never been satisfactorily answered, since in The Championship he ground out with Sami's awful squad but then attacked when given some weaponry. What is clear to me is that, in my opinion, he and DA couldn't work together.

Secondly this does also leave DA and GP on the hook for the thing that so many of us agree is the problem - players who can't finish. And that's really my point all season. We are under achieving on results because of far too many missed chances. There are way too many on here who try to push the line that GP is responsible for all of the good stuff and the players for all of the bad stuff. It was exactly what GP's defenders were saying during the bad run over Christmas and New Year. It's a shared responsibility, surely?

At some point you have to accept football doesn’t have easy answers. Who’s fault is it we don’t convert more of our many chances isn’t an easy answer.

Some answers are easier, in CH’s case we simply didn’t get enough people in and around the box to create enough chances to miss. The belief in what they were doing and their confidence evaporated - so far that isn’t happened under GP, but it could do of course, just like Liverpool’s has under Klopp.

So exactly what you’ve said really, you do have to try to valuate all the good stuff, and whether the bad is something that can be improved.

It’s pretty clear for many people seeing Brighton take the game to any side is something they want to see. They can also see that the players, week in, week out, through bad spells or good have believed in what the manager is trying to do. Personally I get a sense they love playing the way we play, that they’re trusted and valued on and with the ball.

Will it bring us a season like West Ham are enjoying, finishing just above the relegation places last season, to CL places the next? I don’t know. Moyes isn’t a genius, he’s a good manager, but ultimately something just clicked for the players. As said at the start of this post, sometimes football just doesn’t have easy answers.

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