[Help] Annoying neighbour dispute

WATFORD zero · Apr 13, 2021

hans kraay fan club said:
This was really well timed, and have just done this. Only helpful to a point though, in my case.

Among other things, I need to know who is responsible for which fences at the rear of our property (ie which side are we responsible for).

The Title Deeds include the following text, which suggest that this IS prescribed, but where do I actually find that information!? :

A: Property Register
This register describes the land and estate comprised in
the title.
HAMPSHIRE : EASTLEIGH
1 (29.07.2002) The Freehold land shown edged with red on the plan of the
above title filed at the Registry and being ...................
2 (29.07.2002) The land has the benefit of the rights granted by but is
subject to the rights reserved by the Conveyance dated 30 September
1970 referred to in the Charges Register.
3 (29.07.2002) The Conveyance dated 30 September 1970 referred to above
contains a provision as to boundary structures.

C: Charges Register
This register contains any charges and other matters
that affect the land.
1 (29.07.2002) A Conveyance of the land in this title dated 30 September
1970 made between (1) Southampton Builders Limited (Vendor) and (2)
Thomas Albert Webber and Irene Webber (Purchasers) contains restrictive
covenants.

We have three fences in our back garden, one side and the bottom being 'shared' with neighbours. Whenever anything that is 'shared' needs repairing we have simply split the cost. It's worked fine for 30+ years (the neighbour at the side being the same throughout, and the other at the bottom having changed twice).

Only seems fair :shrug:

Maybe worth having a chat.

Lindfield by the Pond · Apr 13, 2021

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
A request for advice. I have done some research online and am pretty sure I am on the right path (ho ho) but would appreciate correction if I'm wrong.

I have an end terrace house in a small block of houses. My immediate neighbour has personal access round the back of my house for taking out the bins and letting her gardner in and out. We have put a gate up between the end of the terrace and the passage between my house and my other neighbour (whose house starts another block of terraced houses) to enclose our garden, give some privacy etc. We gave a key to our neighbour (although we don't normally lock the gate, merely bolt it....).

There have been grumbles (the neighbour claims that there should be wheelchair access, and that the gate would stop this - it doesn't). She also objected to the steepness of the incline from our new patio (built nearly 3 years ago along with the extension) to the side gate. This has passed but I did feel that it is my right to set up my house as I see fit - she can still get her bins out FFS. I bit my lip.

During Covid the neighbour has had visitors coming round the back of my house to sit in her garden. She asked about this and we said 'no problems'. She normally lets us know when visitors are due. On occasions she has not told us, and I have been greeted by some fool grinning through my patio door. I am happy to let it go during Covid.

Yesterday I was working in the garden for a bit. I saw the neighbour and said 'Hi'. She replied 'Oh there you are'....

To cut a long story short, the neighbour had txted Mrs T who was out shopping to ask Mrs T to unbolt the gate. She gave Mrs T 30 minutes notice to unbolt a gate she could have unbolted herself (the bolt's on the inside). Bottom line is the neighbour wants the gate unbolted at all times because it is 'a faff' for her to walk 15 yards to open it to let her friends in. I pointed out that it makes more sense to unbolt the gate herself and not expect us to do it for her. And then the row started...

I pointed out that after Covid is over her friends should go through her house (she has a front door) to get to her garden and that there is no 'public' access across the back of my house. It is for personal use for unavoidable need (taking out the bins). I mentioned strangers gawping into my house, arriving with no notice. I also pointed out that her gardener had covered my nice new gate with muddy hand marks and not cleaned up his mess.

I have looked up section 31 of he highway code, and looked at ordnance survey maps. There is no right of way here. There is also no grounds for 'access of easement'.

We have a meeting this afternoon to discuss the issue. My view is that she can open the gate herself if she has visitors, and that once covid is over she should not use the back of my house as a convenient way of letting friends into her garden. She has actually put a house number by the gate between my garden and hers!

Mrs T will do the 'negotiating' because my fuse is short, but once her blue touch paper is lit the explosion makes mine sound like a gerbil clearing its throat . I'll report back later but any advice on the legal situation would be appreciated.

I'd suggest POTG, or can you set up a live stream?

Harry Wilson's tackle · Apr 13, 2021

Just back from having a chat.

Turns out she wanted the gate left open so that her friends can wander in on their own past he back of our house, because she was concerned about disturbing us by walking round the back of our house to let her friends in via the gate. We told her that we don't mind her opening the gate to let people in during Covid. She said that of course after Covid they can go through her house.

You couldn't make it up.

We did have a brief chat about right of way and whether this can be transferred from those to whom it is granted to third parties of their choosing, but this chat was brief. I promised to forward the legal document whose passage covers this issue. For future reference. Like.

We then had a nice chat about other things. All very convivial.

So I had no need to initiate 'operation shallow grave' after all.

Thanks for the various pieces of advice - accessing the deeds and other documents was a stroke of genius, since it allowed me to elevate myself into an unusual position (of having a bit of an idea about what I was talking about :lolol:

)

Harry Wilson's tackle · Apr 13, 2021

Publius Ovidius said:
Take a baseball bat with you during the negotiations. The implied threat of violence will always win out.

Also paint your face blue...shout FREEEEEEEEDOMMMMM. As you go up to her

I draw the line at THPP impersonations

Weststander · Apr 13, 2021

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Just back from having a chat.

Turns out she wanted the gate left open so that her friends can wander in on their own past he back of our house, because she was concerned about disturbing us by walking round the back of our house to let her friends in via the gate. We told her that we don't mind her opening the gate to let people in during Covid. She said that of course after Covid they can go through her house.

You couldn't make it up.

We did have a brief chat about right of way and whether this can be transferred from those to whom it is granted to third parties of their choosing, but this chat was brief. I promised to forward the legal document whose passage covers this issue. For future reference. Like.

We then had a nice chat about other things. All very convivial.

So I had no need to initiate 'operation shallow grave' after all.

Thanks for the various pieces of advice - accessing the deeds and other documents was a stroke of genius, since it allowed me to elevate myself into an unusual position (of having a bit of an idea about what I was talking about )

On a positive, Covid’s with us forever.

:lolol:

WATFORD zero · Apr 13, 2021

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Just back from having a chat.

Turns out she wanted the gate left open so that her friends can wander in on their own past he back of our house, because she was concerned about disturbing us by walking round the back of our house to let her friends in via the gate. We told her that we don't mind her opening the gate to let people in during Covid. She said that of course after Covid they can go through her house.

You couldn't make it up.

We did have a brief chat about right of way and whether this can be transferred from those to whom it is granted to third parties of their choosing, but this chat was brief. I promised to forward the legal document whose passage covers this issue. For future reference. Like.

We then had a nice chat about other things. All very convivial.

So I had no need to initiate 'operation shallow grave' after all.

Thanks for the various pieces of advice - accessing the deeds and other documents was a stroke of genius, since it allowed me to elevate myself into an unusual position (of having a bit of an idea about what I was talking about )

Disappointing, but what did she make of your invitation to join the British Naturist Society :blush:

marlowe · Apr 13, 2021

Monkey Man said:
.........The situation flared up into shouting matches and even a locked gate on occasion but to be honest this just made it all even more unpleasant.

We didn't get into the legalities but when the bloke died, the situation seemed less problematic.........

Are you trying to plant a subliminal suggestion? If the proposed meeting gets out of hand your post could be used as evidence against you on a charge of incitement or being an accessory

Blue3 · Apr 13, 2021

We have the same small terrace with communal access to a rear wide path this is then fences off with gates into each garden, my sister in law also has a similar situation however her path runs close to the house with the gardens beyond the path so people walk through each other's gardens which has always made me wonder why the house owners don't just get together and see if they can agree to move the path to the bottom of the gardens and fence its official!

Seasidesage · Apr 13, 2021

Pavilionaire said:
My advice:

1. Everybody needs good neighbours. Just a friendly wave each morning helps to make a better day.
2. You need to get to know each other. Next door is only a footstep away.
3. With a little understanding, you can find the perfect blend.
4. You should be there for one another. That's when good neighbours become good friends.

I'd go with this too but if it doesn't instantly pay dividends get Mrs Wilson to bitchslap her....

Bodian · Apr 13, 2021

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Thanks for the various pieces of advice - accessing the deeds and other documents was a stroke of genius, since it allowed me to elevate myself into an unusual position (of having a bit of an idea about what I was talking about )

Only just in from work. Public rights of way officer - so this sort of thing comes up all the time, even though in your case it is a private rather than public right. The Deeds are all-important, as that is what the legal bods will pore over and argue about if it ever comes to it. So always arm yourself with the right stuff.

I hate entering into an argument with the landowner or the public without a nice array of documents and maps to counter whatever bollox they decide to start throwing around at me. One owner (also a solicitor) was arguing at length that a track through his farm wasn't a footpath - and he said something like 'look I'll show you on a map' and went off to fetch an 1860 OS map that had been owned by his grandfather. He unrolled it, and said 'there' to illustrate whatever point he was making (it escapes me now). After a moment I said 'is this your grandfather's writing?' - 'yes' he replied. "But he's written 'Public Road'" I pointed out. Exit one shamefaced solicitor/owner - and the way is now on the maps as a byway!

Glad you got it sorted.

Bodian · Apr 13, 2021

hans kraay fan club said:
This was really well timed, and have just done this. Only helpful to a point though, in my case.

Among other things, I need to know who is responsible for which fences at the rear of our property (ie which side are we responsible for).

The Title Deeds include the following text, which suggest that this IS prescribed, but where do I actually find that information!? :

A: Property Register
This register describes the land and estate comprised in
the title.
HAMPSHIRE : EASTLEIGH
1 (29.07.2002) The Freehold land shown edged with red on the plan of the
above title filed at the Registry and being ...................
2 (29.07.2002) The land has the benefit of the rights granted by but is
subject to the rights reserved by the Conveyance dated 30 September
1970 referred to in the Charges Register.
3 (29.07.2002) The Conveyance dated 30 September 1970 referred to above
contains a provision as to boundary structures.

C: Charges Register
This register contains any charges and other matters
that affect the land.
1 (29.07.2002) A Conveyance of the land in this title dated 30 September
1970 made between (1) Southampton Builders Limited (Vendor) and (2)
Thomas Albert Webber and Irene Webber (Purchasers) contains restrictive
covenants.

The Land Registry sometimes also take copies of the relevant conveyances if they have specific relevant information - you can usually purchase these as well.

Bear in mind that what the LR write isn't necessarily what is in the original conveyances, which can get adapted or differently interpreted over time. I live on an private avenue of 12 houses, and we all have rights of access and maintenance responsibilities. When the houses were all sold off in c1913 they were all done by the same solicitor and every conveyance had exactly the same wording with regard to these rights and responsibilities (we all dug out our originals when it came to resurfacing the road about 10 years ago) - but what was on the Land Registry documents was subtly different for nearly every property.

If you can track down the original conveyances with the maps, look for little 'T' shaped marks on the boundary. Generally speaking the side on which the T lies is the side responsible for / owning the boundary (but not always - the law is never that simple!!).

Harry Wilson's tackle · Apr 13, 2021

hans kraay fan club said:
This was really well timed, and have just done this. Only helpful to a point though, in my case.

Among other things, I need to know who is responsible for which fences at the rear of our property (ie which side are we responsible for).

The Title Deeds include the following text, which suggest that this IS prescribed, but where do I actually find that information!? :

A: Property Register
This register describes the land and estate comprised in
the title.
HAMPSHIRE : EASTLEIGH
1 (29.07.2002) The Freehold land shown edged with red on the plan of the
above title filed at the Registry and being ...................
2 (29.07.2002) The land has the benefit of the rights granted by but is
subject to the rights reserved by the Conveyance dated 30 September
1970 referred to in the Charges Register.
3 (29.07.2002) The Conveyance dated 30 September 1970 referred to above
contains a provision as to boundary structures.

C: Charges Register
This register contains any charges and other matters
that affect the land.
1 (29.07.2002) A Conveyance of the land in this title dated 30 September
1970 made between (1) Southampton Builders Limited (Vendor) and (2)
Thomas Albert Webber and Irene Webber (Purchasers) contains restrictive
covenants.

That's quite tricky. I was looking at the boundaries on my deeds but without proper disclosure of dimensions it's anyone's guess. I have a horrible feeling that supporting documents may well reside in the offices of a solicitor or bank....I bought and downloaded two documents from the deeds site and my deeds are pretty simple....yours sound a bit more complex...good luck! :thumbsup:

Harry Wilson's tackle · Apr 13, 2021

Bodian said:
Only just in from work. Public rights of way officer - so this sort of thing comes up all the time, even though in your case it is a private rather than public right. The Deeds are all-important, as that is what the legal bods will pore over and argue about if it ever comes to it. So always arm yourself with the right stuff.

I hate entering into an argument with the landowner or the public without a nice array of documents and maps to counter whatever bollox they decide to start throwing around at me. One owner (also a solicitor) was arguing at length that a track through his farm wasn't a footpath - and he said something like 'look I'll show you on a map' and went off to fetch an 1860 OS map that had been owned by his grandfather. He unrolled it, and said 'there' to illustrate whatever point he was making (it escapes me now). After a moment I said 'is this your grandfather's writing?' - 'yes' he replied. "But he's written 'Public Road'" I pointed out. Exit one shamefaced solicitor/owner - and the way is now on the maps as a byway!

Glad you got it sorted.

Brilliant. Thanks for the post :thumbsup:

Questions · Apr 13, 2021

I’ve not read the whole thread but I am still available for contract killings. Just PM me Harry.

Rookie · Apr 13, 2021

hans kraay fan club said:
This was really well timed, and have just done this. Only helpful to a point though, in my case.

Among other things, I need to know who is responsible for which fences at the rear of our property (ie which side are we responsible for).

The Title Deeds include the following text, which suggest that this IS prescribed, but where do I actually find that information!? :

A: Property Register
This register describes the land and estate comprised in
the title.
HAMPSHIRE : EASTLEIGH
1 (29.07.2002) The Freehold land shown edged with red on the plan of the
above title filed at the Registry and being ...................
2 (29.07.2002) The land has the benefit of the rights granted by but is
subject to the rights reserved by the Conveyance dated 30 September
1970 referred to in the Charges Register.
3 (29.07.2002) The Conveyance dated 30 September 1970 referred to above
contains a provision as to boundary structures.

C: Charges Register
This register contains any charges and other matters
that affect the land.
1 (29.07.2002) A Conveyance of the land in this title dated 30 September
1970 made between (1) Southampton Builders Limited (Vendor) and (2)
Thomas Albert Webber and Irene Webber (Purchasers) contains restrictive
covenants.

If you are lucky the conveyance will be available from the LR website for a further £3. Alternatively, the title plan (again £3) might show the markings taken from the conveyance.

lawros left foot · Apr 13, 2021

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Just back from having a chat.

Turns out she wanted the gate left open so that her friends can wander in on their own past he back of our house, because she was concerned about disturbing us by walking round the back of our house to let her friends in via the gate[you/I]. We told her that we don't mind her opening the gate to let people in during Covid. She said that of course after Covid they can go through her house.

You couldn't make it up.

We did have a brief chat about right of way and whether this can be transferred from those to whom it is granted to third parties of their choosing, but this chat was brief. I promised to forward the legal document whose passage covers this issue. For future reference. Like.

We then had a nice chat about other things. All very convivial.

So I had no need to initiate 'operation shallow grave' after all.

Thanks for the various pieces of advice - accessing the deeds and other documents was a stroke of genius, since it allowed me to elevate myself into an unusual position (of having a bit of an idea about what I was talking about )

Pleased thing have all worked out to your advantage HWT.

Just one question, you did keep your clothes on throughout the meeting, didn’t you?

Billy the Fish · Apr 13, 2021

B-right-on said:
I'll give you the number for my mother's neighbour to try your philosophy on.

He's spat at my daughter when she was 10 years old. He calls my 77 year old mum the 'c' word to her face and has done many times.

He's been in prison for GBH, he got arrested for attempted murder by trying to run over a traffic warden for having the nerve to give him a ticket (plus he threatened to rape his wife and kill his kids). Been arrested more times than I can count for ABH. He's in his 50s and moved in 10 years ago. My mums lived there for 35 years.

Whilst I agree with your point of view, there are still a few people who are just *ankers.

But apart from that he's a nice bloke! :lolol:

Paulie Gualtieri · Apr 13, 2021

Cowfold Seagull said:
Advocating hitting a woman? How very dare you.

The wife does the negotiating!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

hans kraay fan club · Apr 13, 2021

KZNSeagull said:
Ours included keeping caravans and no satellite dishes on the front of the house.

Isn't there a map with the deeds with arrows on it to show which boundary is each properties responsibility?

Sadly, no arrows. Was exactly what I was hoping for.

B-right-on said:
Did you download the title plan? Another £3 but should have the boundaries marked and should be able to tell who owns what in conjunction with the deeds. They go together.

Yes.

Wrong-Direction · Apr 13, 2021

Sometimes I think renting isn't so bad

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[Help] Annoying neighbour dispute

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