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[Albion] 'Enough with the data obsession, in the real world only goals for and against count'



Wozza

Wozza

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Jul 6, 2003
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Jim White in the Torygraph...

Brighton and Hove Albion have a new title: they are now officially the stats nerd’s favourite football team. For the club’s long-standing fans observing their jaw-dropping defeat by West Bromwich Albion over the weekend may have been the most miserable experience. Those missed penalties, the constant splattering of the woodwork, the goals disallowed: it was enough to make the calmest of supporters watch from behind the sofa in despair. Even for neutrals, West Brom’s victory was as batty an exhibition of smash and grab as they can have recalled, the very essence of Sam Allardyce’s management career distilled into 90 minutes.

But for the growing new model army of the data-obsessed this was something a lot more significant. Brighton have become unwitting poster boys for a way of looking at the game which does not focus on goals scored or conceded, nor possession. It is about the difference between what actually took place and expectation.

Cont...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...ata-obsession-real-world-goals-against-count/
 






Bozza

Bozza

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Jul 4, 2003
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Wozza said:
Even for neutrals, West Brom’s victory was as batty an exhibition of smash and grab as they can have recalled
Click to expand...

Are no neutrals able to remember back to last Monday's Brighton & Hove Albion v Crystal Palace fixture?
 


RossyG

RossyG

Well-known member
Dec 20, 2014
2,630
Yep, points win prizes.

Nothing we could’ve done about that ridiculous decision to disallow a goal, which was a freak occurrence, but all this “we were the moral victors” talk gets us nowhere.

As for, “I’d rather play like we do and go down than play like Palace/Spurs etc and stay up”... :shootself

For us, right now, it’s the winning that counts not the taking part.
 


Icy Gull

Icy Gull

Back on the rollercoaster
Jul 5, 2003
72,015
Potter’s impressed :wink:

Albion are big under-achievers according to the Expected Goals formula but Potter says that means little to him.

He added: “I have no thoughts on that at all.

“I am only bothered about the main table, which is the one I’m trying to help us improve our position in.

“I think those other metrics give you some information about other things around your performance. The most important stat is the one at the end of the match and that is the one we have to keep fighting for.”
 




Swansman

Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
22,320
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"Brighton have become unwitting poster boys for a way of looking at the game which does not focus on goals scored or conceded, nor possession."

Its funny he mentions possession as it kind of reveals him: its not about "results are the important thing", its about "these stats did not exist when I was young and therefore they do not matter".

There's always been ways of looking at the game which does not focus on results / goals in or out. Read some old shite from the 1960s and they would talk about George Best dribbling, go forward a few years and they would talk about Leeds playing style, or the Netherlands total football in the 1970s World Cups. Its part of what makes it interesting.

Its very simple for those who think only results (and.. possession?) matters or is of any interest. They could just stare at the scoreboard for 90 minutes and then **** off. No point in watching someone kick the ball if you only care about the scoreline.
 


Guinness Boy

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Jul 23, 2003
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Swansman said:
"Brighton have become unwitting poster boys for a way of looking at the game which does not focus on goals scored or conceded, nor possession."

Its funny he mentions possession as it kind of reveals him: its not about "results are the important thing", its about "these stats did not exist when I was young and therefore they do not matter".

There's always been ways of looking at the game which does not focus on results / goals in or out. Read some old shite from the 1960s and they would talk about George Best dribbling, go forward a few years and they would talk about Leeds playing style, or the Netherlands total football in the 1970s World Cups. Its part of what makes it interesting.

Its very simple for those who think only results (and.. possession?) matters or is of any interest. They could just stare at the scoreboard for 90 minutes and then **** off. No point in watching someone kick the ball if you only care about the scoreline.
Click to expand...

But what element of possession should we care about?

Liverpool 0 Brighton 1 - Brighton 37% possession
Brighton 1 Spurs 0 - Brighton 43% possession
Leeds 0 Brighton 1 - Brighton 33% possession
Brighton 1 Palace 2 - Brighton 75% possession
 


vagabond

vagabond

Well-known member
May 17, 2019
9,804
Brighton
Another dinosaur clueless about the operations of the modern game.

Hey Jim, why do you think so many elite clubs and sports have huge data science operations? Go and tell em they’re all stats nerds and ain’t needed then.
 




Guinness Boy

Guinness Boy

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vagabond said:
Another dinosaur clueless about the operations of the modern game.

Hey Jim, why do you think so many elite clubs and sports have huge data science operations? Go and tell em they’re all stats nerds and ain’t needed then.
Click to expand...

And how many times have you heard a kid come off the pitch after a game and ask his dad excitedly "hey Dad, what was my Xgf?"
 


Simster

Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,165
Surrey
Bozza said:
Are no neutrals able to remember back to last Monday's Brighton & Hove Albion v Crystal Palace fixture?
Click to expand...
We all thought absolutely dominating your local rivals for 90 minutes, conceding just two penalty box touches and yet two goals - one in the final minute of injury time to condemn us to defeat - was absolutely PEAK Brighton & Hove Albion for 2020/21. And then along came Saturday which was frankly just jaw dropping. So yes, I'd say even though the Palace game was absurd, Saturday really was somehow, inexplicably, even worse.

In fact, enough already. Just thinking about Saturday makes me so angry at our appalling SHITHOUSE "forwards". They are just toss. F**k off the lot of you, and when you get there f*ck off some more. Yes, you Connolly. I don't care that you're 21 or whatever. You're confident enough to wear that stupid haircut. Just f*ck off to Rotherham. And you "Welbz". Sorry, another lovely guy I'm sure, but you are absolutely crap. I knew you would be. You, Ali J, are also crap. At least your overhead kick against Chelsea went in - we'll be able to repeat that on your highlight montage so that we can get it up to 30 seconds. Good job as we'll have leave off your pathetic header against 10-man Sheff Utd when my 10 year old would have nodded it in. I'll stop now, there are others. You f**king know who you are.
 


RossyG

RossyG

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Dec 20, 2014
2,630
Mustafa said:
Becoming tiring this.

Just because we are not getting the results, doesn't mean that the stats are irrelevant and should be ignored.

The stats demonstrate that we have a great team that is doing everything right, but are missing one crucial component - players who can stick it in the back of the net consistently.
Click to expand...

And we need stats to tell us this?
 




vagabond

vagabond

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May 17, 2019
9,804
Brighton
Guinness Boy said:
And how many times have you heard a kid come off the pitch after a game and ask his dad excitedly "hey Dad, what was my Xgf?"
Click to expand...

Whether you like it or not, there’s a reason that all major clubs and organisations in elite sport are heavily invested in Data Science.
 


D

disgruntled h blocker

Active member
Oct 16, 2003
819
Ampfield
Totally agree... and along with this should be the "oh but but but we look so good" [while grinding out a 0-0 draw against Fulham or 1-1 draw against Sheffield United]... It sometimes "looks good" to see an opposition goalkeeper to get the ball out of their net.
 


vagabond

vagabond

Well-known member
May 17, 2019
9,804
Brighton
Mustafa said:
Becoming tiring this.

Just because we are not getting the results, doesn't mean that the stats are irrelevant and should be ignored.

The stats demonstrate that we have a great team that is doing everything right, but are missing one crucial component - players who can stick it in the back of the net consistently.

We could start hoofing it up the field, bringing down our xG exponentially, but if you think this would improve results then you are a numpty. We would STILL lack natural goalscorers if we did this, and we'd probably go down.

We are doing everything right. We just lack confident goal scorers. Whatever you believe this is the fact of the matter.
Click to expand...

Exactly this.
 




Guinness Boy

Guinness Boy

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Jul 23, 2003
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Mustafa said:
Becoming tiring this.

Just because we are not getting the results, doesn't mean that the stats are irrelevant and should be ignored.

The stats demonstrate that we have a great team that is doing everything right, but are missing one crucial component - players who can stick it in the back of the net consistently.

We could start hoofing it up the field, bringing down our xG exponentially, but if you think this would improve results then you are a numpty. We would STILL lack natural goalscorers if we did this, and we'd probably go down.

We are doing everything right. We just lack confident goal scorers. Whatever you believe this is the fact of the matter.
Click to expand...

You've contradicted yourself there.

If we were doing "everything right" then our "great team" would be regularly sticking it in the onion bag. We have a team that's doing everything right except the only bit that actually counts.
 


F

Farehamseagull

Solly March Fan Club
Nov 22, 2007
13,951
Sarisbury Green, Southampton
Oh FFS, does this really need to become a binary issue too, don't we have enough of these at the moment?!

Yes, ultimately the most important thing is scoring more goals than your opponent and winning the match. And yes, there are different ways to win a match and you don't always need to have the most possession or shots or highest xG to win a match. Everyone knows that.

But despite not being the be all and end all, the reason why stats about shots, possession and xG are still important and will continue to be used at the highest level of the game with clubs investing millions in data analysis looking at all aspects of a match, is because historically, the side that has the most possession, has the most shots and the highest xG, win most of the games and leagues.
 


RossyG

RossyG

Well-known member
Dec 20, 2014
2,630
Those poor managers in the Seventies. They’d watch their teams play well in defence and midfield and then bungle every chance of scoring, but they wouldn’t know what was happening and that they needed a goal scorer as there was no data science to tell them.
 










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