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[Politics] Brexit

If there was a second Brexit referendum how would you vote?

  • Total voters
    1,081


willalbion

willalbion

Well-known member
May 8, 2006
1,485
London
Cheshire cheesemaker says business left with £250,000 'Brexit hole'
Simon Spurrell says his firm lost 20% of sales and will switch £1m investment to France

Richard Buxton, Simon Spurrell, Laurence Bass.
Simon Spurrell (centre) said the loss in sales came after discovering he needed to provide a £180 health certificate on retail orders to consumers in the EU. Photograph: Stephen Rowson/Simon Spurrell
Lisa O'Carroll Brexit correspondent
[MENTION=15212]lisa[/MENTION]ocarroll
Sat 23 Jan 2021 08.28 GMT

3,355
A commercial cheesemaker in Cheshire has been left with a £250,000 Brexit hole in his business as a direct result of the UK’s departure from the EU on 1 January.

Simon Spurrell said he has lost 20% of his sales overnight after discovering he needed to provide a £180 health certificate on retail orders to consumers in the EU, including those buying personal gift packs of his award-winning wax-wrapped cheese worth £25 or £30.

He says he had hoped to take part in the “sunny uplands” promised by the government post-Brexit but has instead seen the viability of his online retail come to a “dead stop”.

“Our business had high hopes of continued growth in the EU market, after seeing the avoidance of the no-deal and announcement of a free trade deal.
 






drew

drew

Drew
Oct 3, 2006
23,063
Burgess Hill
Charity Shield 1910 said:
Well you can google the official population statistics yourself. You then can form a view on London and the percentage difference between actual and reported population (although if you have not lived there I appreciate that might be more difficult). That would be a start. Actual UK population is over 70 Million but I'm not going to say how I know this. However it has just fallen by over a million because people have left as a result of lockdown and people having to return. Current official estimation is that over 800,000 left the UK from London. As for London having a vastly bigger population than Scotland, well look up UK official statistics on the population of Scotland and then of London. Even on official statistics, London is 9 Million and Scotland 5.5 Million. Incidentally, you could add the populations of Scotland and Ireland and they wouldn't be much difference to the actual (not official) population of London. It's food for thought. There is much nonsense spoken through the prism of being pro or anti the UK after Brexit. Take a step back, and think or it independently of all that noise.
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Well thanks for your comments but the world is full of crap facts and you may or may not be right but unless you can substantiate it I'll stick to the official figures. I'm not challenging your arguments about , just the stats they are based on. That said, you seem to imply 800k have left London and the UK due to the lockdown but surely Brexit may also have had an effect.

It is of course up to you whether you want to confirm them and the fact that you post no links suggests you're not going to, that's your prerogative.
 


C

Charity Shield 1910

New member
Jan 4, 2021
556
Rogero said:
What has it got to do with Brexit? If the Shetlanders want independence then why not?
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I think he is fairly pointing out that the way many people decide to talk about anything, often depends on their firm convictions on Brexit rather than with any independent thought or clear analysis of things. For me I'm even more cynical. I think Scottish independence is the next way to sell airtime and fill newspapers for the press after the pandemic goes. We may as well get used to it.
 


C

Charity Shield 1910

New member
Jan 4, 2021
556
drew said:
Well thanks for your comments but the world is full of crap facts and you may or may not be right but unless you can substantiate it I'll stick to the official figures. I'm not challenging your arguments about , just the stats they are based on. That said, you seem to imply 800k have left London and the UK due to the lockdown but surely Brexit may also have had an effect.

It is of course up to you whether you want to confirm them and the fact that you post no links suggests you're not going to, that's your prerogative.
Click to expand...

The population has continued to increase since the 2016 referendum. The pandemic however has stopped the ability to work, pay rent ect. That is a disaster for anyone who has moved to London from overseas so they had to leave. It's not a surprise. Whether they will return, well on balance I think there will be a demand but whether that is good for the UK given the population has risen from 42 million in 1945 depends how you value economic growth over the environment in the South East. You pays your money, you makes your choice.
 




R

Rogero

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2010
5,714
Shoreham
I am playing devils advocate . The SNP say enough people in Scotland are voting for independence from the UK so that is our right. Take this a step further, If enough in Shetland want their independence would the Scots let that happen? I doubt it as the oil is there. Nothing to do with BREXIT!
 


nwgull

nwgull

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2003
13,767
Manchester
Charity Shield 1910 said:
In the interests of balance (something I'm more interested in than how people voted) I would say three significant advantages are:-

1. Macro benefit - That all law / regulation / policy is created by those elected and accountable via elections then implemented by a civil service. Instead of created by a civil service and rubber stamped by relatively weak elected governments.
2. Macro - We are not in the Euro, a currency created despite the fact that it is not an optimal currency area for political rather than economic reasons.
2. Micro - The vaccination procurement success of the UK over the EU.

Note - this does not inform anyone which way I voted. I merely point this out in my quest for some balance which seems harder and harder. People seem to form a view on something then look for the evidence to back it up instead of the other way around. I'm sure it ever was thus, but it gets tiresome. There were both good and bad reasons to vote either way.
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I appreciate your reply. However:

1 - We always used to make our laws. We had a veto on stuff imposed by the EU, so I'm not sure that this is a huge benefit. Also, we used to elect our MEPs.

2 - We were never in the Euro when in the EU.

3 - I don't know much about the EU vaccine procurement compared to ours, but taking your statement at face value, then yes this is a tangible benefit of us leaving. It's the first one I've read/heard in the 5 years since the vote. I hope it's worth all the disadvantages of leaving, of which many appear to be presenting themselves in the first month alone.
 


C

Charity Shield 1910

New member
Jan 4, 2021
556
nwgull said:
I appreciate your reply. However:

1 - We always used to make our laws. We had a veto on stuff imposed by the EU, so I'm not sure that this is a huge benefit. Also, we used to elect our MEPs.

2 - We were never in the Euro when in the EU.

3 - I don't know much about the EU vaccine procurement compared to ours, but taking your statement at face value, then yes this is a tangible benefit of us leaving. It's the first one I've read/heard in the 5 years since the vote. I hope it's worth all the disadvantages of leaving, of which many appear to be presenting themselves in the first month alone.
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1. Well no Britain didn't make all it's own laws. The Miffid regulations just one important example. The EU civil service created Miffid and weak national parliaments rightly or wrongly implemented it. Regulation is as much law as the theft act. It is important that those who create that policy are democratically accountable. One advantage of being outside the EU is that law and policy is created by those with direct democratic accountability and implemented by a civil service and not the other way around, as is unarguably the system in the EU. I would also point out that there is talk of an EU army, which in essence gives the EU the right to send people to kill and be killed. Who precisely will send the "go" button and how are they accountable?

2. Only thanks to Gordon Brown. Tony Blair wanted to join, without a referendum. Either way, it's an advantage to be distant from an organisation that creates a currency despite knowing that such a currency will not be in an optimal currency area. This is peoples lives they were playing with and nobody but nobody to hold accountable. It may well be this mistake that might cause the EU to reform or end. How it reforms, well that's above my pay grade. I think it can and probably will be done, but how, I just don't know. It will be messy and as with everything too difficult it becomes tomorrow's job.

I really do think there needs to be some balance on this. Many good reasons to remain in the EU. Many things to miss. But equally, many good reasons to leave.
 








nicko31

nicko31

Well-known member
Jan 7, 2010
17,585
Gods country fortnightly
Papa Lazarou said:
The current government are to blame for the break up.
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Aside of the reckless decision to put a customs border in the Irish Sea, it cannot be forgotten that in 2014 the Tories used membership of the EU to convince Scots to remain in the Union of the UK

If the UK goes the Tories are 100% to blame, maybe its what they actually want?
 




Baker lite

Baker lite

Banned
Mar 16, 2017
6,309
in my house
Does it all boil down to certain political figures not understanding the will of the electorate?
In 2014 there was a once in a generation referendum on Scottish independence,the majority voted to remain in the Union. In 2016 there was a once in a generation referendum to remain or leave the EU, the majority voted to leave. It has cost two Prime ministers their leadership and more than likely prevented the Labour Party getting into Downing Street for some considerable time.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 


drew

drew

Drew
Oct 3, 2006
23,063
Burgess Hill
Charity Shield 1910 said:
1. Well no Britain didn't make all it's own laws. The Miffid regulations just one important example. The EU civil service created Miffid and weak national parliaments rightly or wrongly implemented it. Regulation is as much law as the theft act. It is important that those who create that policy are democratically accountable. One advantage of being outside the EU is that law and policy is created by those with direct democratic accountability and implemented by a civil service and not the other way around, as is unarguably the system in the EU. I would also point out that there is talk of an EU army, which in essence gives the EU the right to send people to kill and be killed. Who precisely will send the "go" button and how are they accountable?

2. Only thanks to Gordon Brown. Tony Blair wanted to join, without a referendum. Either way, it's an advantage to be distant from an organisation that creates a currency despite knowing that such a currency will not be in an optimal currency area. This is peoples lives they were playing with and nobody but nobody to hold accountable. It may well be this mistake that might cause the EU to reform or end. How it reforms, well that's above my pay grade. I think it can and probably will be done, but how, I just don't know. It will be messy and as with everything too difficult it becomes tomorrow's job.

I really do think there needs to be some balance on this. Many good reasons to remain in the EU. Many things to miss. But equally, many good reasons to leave.
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Forgive my naivety but I thought laws were passed by elected MEPs? As I understood it, the elected government of each member state nominated a commissioner who has a specific portfolio. They would propose laws and they would be voted on by MEPs.

You also seem to be derogatory about regulation. Regulation of markets protects, in the main, the consumer, presumably normally at the expense of profit which is why, I guess, most of the conservatives don't like it.
 








vegster

vegster

Sanity Clause
May 5, 2008
27,893
It's quite certain that NI will become a part of Eire within the next 5-10 years, the Scots will argue for independence and will get it eventually unless the Tories and to a lesser extent Labour, become far more supportive of Scotland financially.....and that isn't going to happen.
 


C

Charity Shield 1910

New member
Jan 4, 2021
556
drew said:
Forgive my naivety but I thought laws were passed by elected MEPs? As I understood it, the elected government of each member state nominated a commissioner who has a specific portfolio. They would propose laws and they would be voted on by MEPs.

You also seem to be derogatory about regulation. Regulation of markets protects, in the main, the consumer, presumably normally at the expense of profit which is why, I guess, most of the conservatives don't like it.
Click to expand...

No, you have missed entirely my point. I am not saying Miffid was good or bad (although if you want a 5 hour conversation on how it is killing many investment and insurance industries in the UK then I can introduce you to someone else). I'm not against regulation at all. The point is that the people who create the policy for that regulation must be directly democratically accountable. As for MEP's well, that is not even worth comment. The EU parliament is a pointless charade. Power rests in the EU in the civil service, then weak domestic parliaments, often not many decades on from totalitarian regimes (such as Portugal - military dictatorship until 1986) implements them. Can I also say that pointing out a fault is the first step to reform. To close your eyes is the road to trouble. Another reason to leave is the protection of the common law legal system. The watering down of the most widely used, trusted and frankly best legal system in the world is something that was a worry. So that I am balanced, an important if not vital reason to remain was something that nobody seems to mention - the stability of Western Europe. Really tho' this utter one sided drivel from politicians and the press is beyond the pale.
 






Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
50,075
Faversham
vegster said:
It's quite certain that NI will become a part of Eire within the next 5-10 years, the Scots will argue for independence and will get it eventually unless the Tories and to a lesser extent Labour, become far more supportive of Scotland financially.....and that isn't going to happen.
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Why would Scotland argue for independence because we don't support them financially? That would be like a small boy deciding to leave home because mum and dad refuse to upgrade his playstation and give him more pocket money. I think the correct answer would be 'off you go, then; see you in ten minutes'.
 


nicko31

nicko31

Well-known member
Jan 7, 2010
17,585
Gods country fortnightly
Thunder Bolt said:
Johnson refusing to accept the EU ambassador because it doesn’t represent a ‘nation’, in fact, admitting the EU consists of 27 independent nations, who all have sovereignty.
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They are literally like children, Biden will be impressed. NOT
 


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