[Cricket] Arthur Gilligan Sussex CCC

Lenny Rider · Jan 15, 2021

Out and about in the car this afternoon they were talking about the Basil D'Oliveira affair from 1968 on Talk Sport came back in the office and googled it, it appears our very own Arthur Gilligan was Chairman of the MCC back in 1968 who initially didn't pick the player for the tour to South Africa despite scoring in 158 in the final test against the Aussies a couple of weeks before,they later picked him before the South African Govt cancelled the tour because of a non white player in the England squad.

On further investigation it appears Gilligan was previously a member of Oswald (not Graham) Moseley's British Union of Fascists in the 1930's, and still in the 1960's had right wing leanings when head of the MCC, as did Alec Bedser apparently..

Yet less than a decade later Sussex named a stand after him, as Greavsie used to say "its a funny old game"

GT49er · Jan 15, 2021

Lenny Rider said:
Out and about in the car this afternoon they were talking about the Basil D'Oliveira affair from 1968 on Talk Sport came back in the office and googled it, it appears our very own Arthur Gilligan was Chairman of the MCC back in 1968 who initially didn't pick the player for the tour to South Africa despite scoring in 158 in the final test against the Aussies a couple of weeks before,they later picked him before the South African Govt cancelled the tour because of a non white player in the England squad.

On further investigation it appears Gilligan was previously a member of Oswald (not Graham) Moseley's British Union of Fascists in the 1930's, and still in the 1960's had right wing leanings when head of the MCC, as did Alec Bedser apparently..

Yet less than a decade later Sussex named a stand after him, as Greavsie used to say "its a funny old game"

Funny old game? Funny old world 40 - 50 - 80 + years ago, a few generations in fact. Well, not really funny at all, but very different, that's all. Is there a statue somewhere we can pull down?

Gwylan · Jan 15, 2021

There's a lot about this in Peter Oborne's excellent biography of Dolly.

Oborne's take on this is that the chairman (who is elected yearly) didn't have as much cloud as the secretary and treasurer of MCC, both permanent positions: Gubby Allen and Billy Griffith (also ex Sussex) respectively. And Doug Insole as chairman of selectors and Colin Cowdrey, as captain, also had a say. Gilligan chaired the meeting that excluded D'Oliveira but it was Allen and Griffith who pushed for his exclusion.

Cricket is populated by people with right wing views so Gilligan wasn't alone in this. There wasn't much desire to exclude South Africa among the cricketing establishment. Players rushed to play there and most objected to political pressure to cold shoulder the apartheid regime. There are also some shocking stories emerging about the way that some black and Asian cricketers were treated in that era - it's not a pretty story.

When Surrey's Mike Edwards was president of the Cricketers Association he said it was the only trade union in Britain whose members were more right wing than the employers (Edwards incidentally resigned his post when the Association received a donation from South Africa.)

blue-shifted · Jan 15, 2021

Lenny Rider said:
Out and about in the car this afternoon they were talking about the Basil D'Oliveira affair from 1968 on Talk Sport came back in the office and googled it, it appears our very own Arthur Gilligan was Chairman of the MCC back in 1968 who initially didn't pick the player for the tour to South Africa despite scoring in 158 in the final test against the Aussies a couple of weeks before,they later picked him before the South African Govt cancelled the tour because of a non white player in the England squad.

On further investigation it appears Gilligan was previously a member of Oswald (not Graham) Moseley's British Union of Fascists in the 1930's, and still in the 1960's had right wing leanings when head of the MCC, as did Alec Bedser apparently..

Yet less than a decade later Sussex named a stand after him, as Greavsie used to say "its a funny old game"

No shortage of right wing leanings to this day

Charity Shield 1910 · Jan 15, 2021

Whilst in South Africa they have now named Durban Airport "King Shaka" airport. Shaka, being the founder of the Zulu nation by military force in the early 1800's, which in turn was formed out of the Bantu migration into South Africa (the Zulu nation are not old residents of modern day South Africa, they arrived about the same time that the German/Dutch/British arrived in South Africa).

Shaka was both a slave owner and slave trader (in that he sold / exchanged slaves as was the custom in most of Africa throughout history, and indeed to the modern day). Shaka was also a brutal dictator who interestingly is now judged as a "man of his times", with nobody asking the modern day South African government to take down his statue or rename the airport. The statue is to recognise that he was the founder of the Zulu nation, and I would agree that he should have a statue to him/airport named after him because his life has shaped an entire nation. It doesn't however mean that he was a nice man.

I also cannot see a call to take down the pyramids (built by slaves), or close the Viking museums in Dublin or tell the Italians they need to rename all buildings named after Roman Emperor's. There doesn't seem to be a desire for knocking down Ancient Greece either. Perhaps the South African's at Durban airport may have a point or maybe not. You pay your money, you take your choice. One thing is for certain,slavery has not been "abolished". It still exists in Africa and the Middle East. In that respect, it has not ceased since the dawn of time. Slavery was however first abolished by the British and over time, the world has agreed with that stance.

I am pleased that people have started to be interested in history, I just would like people to read it with a neutral, inquisitive mind, instead of trying to find things they hope might back up their particular view on the world. It's so interesting, and even more so, when read with an open, neutral mind. As for Arthur Gilligan, yes I was aware of his political views. Should they rename the Arthur Gilligan Stand? I don't think so. He has the stand named after him for his work at Sussex CCC. Not the views he held when president of MCC. Like Shaka, it does not mean he was or was not a nice man. That's my two penneth and yes I did bite to the click bait. Hope the mini history lesson is interesting but if not then sorry to bore you all.

PILTDOWN MAN · Jan 15, 2021

Charity Shield 1910 said:
Whilst in South Africa they have now named Durban Airport "King Shaka" airport. Shaka, being the founder of the Zulu nation by military force in the early 1800's, which in turn was formed out of the Bantu migration into South Africa (the Zulu nation are not old residents of modern day South Africa, they arrived about the same time that the German/Dutch/British arrived in South Africa). Shaka was both a slave owner and slave trader (in that he sold / exchanged slaves as was the custom in most of Africa throughout history, and indeed to the modern day). Shaka was also a brutal dictator who interestingly is now judged as a "man of his times", with nobody asking the modern day South African government to take down his statue or rename the airport. The statue is to recognise that he was the founder of the Zulu nation, and I would agree that he should have a statue to him/airport named after him because his life has shaped an entire nation. It doesn't however mean that he was a nice man. I also cannot see a call to take down the pyramids (built by slaves), or close the Viking museums in Dublin or tell the Italians they need to rename all buildings named after Roman Emperor's. There doesn't seem to be a desire for knocking down Ancient Greece either. Perhaps the South African's at Durban airport may have a point or maybe not. You pay your money, you take your choice. One thing is for certain,slavery has not been "abolished". It still exists in Africa and the Middle East. In that respect, it has not ceased since the dawn of time. Slavery was however first abolished by the British and over time, the world has agreed with that stance. I am pleased that people have started to be interested in history, I just would like people to read it with a neutral, inquisitive mind, instead of trying to find things they hope might back up their particular view on the world. It's so interesting, and even more so, when read with an open, neutral mind. As for Arthur Gilligan, yes I was aware of his political views. Should they rename the Arthur Gilligan Stand? I don't think so. He has the stand named after him for his work at Sussex CCC. Not the views he held when president of MCC. Like Shaka, it does not mean he was or was not a nice man. That's my two penneth and yes I did bite to the click bait. Hope the mini history lesson is interesting but if not then sorry to bore you all.

Good points but very hard to read a few paragraphs would help

Gwylan · Jan 15, 2021

Charity Shield 1910 said:
Should they rename the Arthur Gilligan Stand? I don't think so. He has the stand named after him for his work at Sussex CCC.

Not any more: it was demolished about ten years ago

Charity Shield 1910 · Jan 15, 2021

Charity Shield 1910 said:
Whilst in South Africa they have now named Durban Airport "King Shaka" airport. Shaka, being the founder of the Zulu nation by military force in the early 1800's, which in turn was formed out of the Bantu migration into South Africa (the Zulu nation are not old residents of modern day South Africa, they arrived about the same time that the German/Dutch/British arrived in South Africa).

Shaka was both a slave owner and slave trader (in that he sold / exchanged slaves as was the custom in most of Africa throughout history, and indeed to the modern day). Shaka was also a brutal dictator who interestingly is now judged as a "man of his times", with nobody asking the modern day South African government to take down his statue or rename the airport. The statue is to recognise that he was the founder of the Zulu nation, and I would agree that he should have a statue to him/airport named after him because his life has shaped an entire nation. It doesn't however mean that he was a nice man.

I also cannot see a call to take down the pyramids (built by slaves), or close the Viking museums in Dublin or tell the Italians they need to rename all buildings named after Roman Emperor's. There doesn't seem to be a desire for knocking down Ancient Greece either. Perhaps the South African's at Durban airport may have a point or maybe not. You pay your money, you take your choice. One thing is for certain,slavery has not been "abolished". It still exists in Africa and the Middle East. In that respect, it has not ceased since the dawn of time. Slavery was however first abolished by the British and over time, the world has agreed with that stance.

I am pleased that people have started to be interested in history, I just would like people to read it with a neutral, inquisitive mind, instead of trying to find things they hope might back up their particular view on the world. It's so interesting, and even more so, when read with an open, neutral mind. As for Arthur Gilligan, yes I was aware of his political views. Should they rename the Arthur Gilligan Stand? I don't think so. He has the stand named after him for his work at Sussex CCC. Not the views he held when president of MCC. Like Shaka, it does not mean he was or was not a nice man. That's my two penneth and yes I did bite to the click bait. Hope the mini history lesson is interesting but if not then sorry to bore you all.

With a paragraph or two

vegster · Jan 15, 2021

Gwylan said:
There's a lot about this in Peter Oborne's excellent biography of Dolly.

Oborne's take on this is that the chairman (who is elected yearly) didn't have as much cloud as the secretary and treasurer of MCC, both permanent positions: Gubby Allen and Billy Griffith (also ex Sussex) respectively. And Doug Insole as chairman of selectors and Colin Cowdrey, as captain, also had a say. Gilligan chaired the meeting that excluded D'Oliveira but it was Allen and Griffith who pushed for his exclusion.

Cricket is populated by people with right wing views so Gilligan wasn't alone in this. There wasn't much desire to exclude South Africa among the cricketing establishment. Players rushed to play there and most objected to political pressure to cold shoulder the apartheid regime. There are also some shocking stories emerging about the way that some black and Asian cricketers were treated in that era - it's not a pretty story.

When Surrey's Mike Edwards was president of the Cricketers Association he said it was the only trade union in Britain whose members were more right wing than the employers (Edwards incidentally resigned his post when the Association received a donation from South Africa.)

I'm sure i remember Geoffrey Boycott being dropped by Doug Insole for slow play, " Boyc's " always suggests now that Insole should have had his name spelt slightly differently.

timbha · Jan 15, 2021

Gwylan said:
Not any more: it was demolished about ten years ago

Thought the stand (sea end) is still there but not open to spectators. Perhaps no longer called the Gilligan Stand.

Publius Ovidius · Jan 15, 2021

Lenny Rider said:
Out and about in the car this afternoon they were talking about the Basil D'Oliveira affair from 1968 on Talk Sport came back in the office and googled it, it appears our very own Arthur Gilligan was Chairman of the MCC back in 1968 who initially didn't pick the player for the tour to South Africa despite scoring in 158 in the final test against the Aussies a couple of weeks before,they later picked him before the South African Govt cancelled the tour because of a non white player in the England squad.

On further investigation it appears Gilligan was previously a member of Oswald (not Graham) Moseley's British Union of Fascists in the 1930's, and still in the 1960's had right wing leanings when head of the MCC, as did Alec Bedser apparently..

Yet less than a decade later Sussex named a stand after him, as Greavsie used to say "its a funny old game"

We lived in South Africa at the time!

There was a very different view to it over there than the uk.

Cheshire Cat · Jan 15, 2021

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cr...arthur-gilligans-visit-in-1924-25-303819/amp/

There was a lot of it about at the time.

C. B Fry was a bit dodgy as well.

Eeyore · Jan 15, 2021

All this was before my time and certainly makes astonishing reading during this era.

My first memories of issues with South Africa was the 1982 rebels tour. An exercise for financial security for a number of players, perhaps, but the curtailing of some promising Test careers.

Charity Shield 1910 · Jan 15, 2021

Brighton Lines said:
All this was before my time and certainly makes astonishing reading during this era.

My first memories of issues with South Africa was the 1982 rebels tour. An exercise for financial security for a number of players, perhaps, but the curtailing of some promising Test careers.

Colin Croft one such example. He would no doubt ask how many footballers will be refusing to go to China.

Charity Shield 1910 · Jan 15, 2021

I have a good book on the D'Oliveira affair. This thread will make me hunt for it. From memory, I think the selectors were not going to pick him for the Oval Test but had to recall him due to injury. Then Dolly scored runs and took wickets. They couldn't drop him and then when the South Africans tried to tell MCC who to pick then that was the end of the tour. John Arlott was also the person who arranged for Dolly to get his first professional contract at a Lancashire League side.

Gwylan · Jan 15, 2021

Cheshire Cat said:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cr...arthur-gilligans-visit-in-1924-25-303819/amp/

There was a lot of it about at the time.

C. B Fry was a bit dodgy as well.

Fry was actually one of few non right wing cricketers - he was a Liberal parliamentary candidate three times. He did, however, have some weird ideas - such as fostering strong links between Boy Scouts and Hitler Youth but that seems to be more down to naivete rather than ideology

Gwylan · Jan 15, 2021

Charity Shield 1910 said:
Colin Croft one such example. He would no doubt ask how many footballers will be refusing to go to China.

There's a good book out about the West Indies tour of South Africa. I haven't read it but it has some good reviews. Despite the promised financial security, it didn't end well for many of the particpants

Charity Shield 1910 · Jan 15, 2021

Gwylan said:
There's a good book out about the West Indies tour of South Africa. I haven't read it but it has some good reviews. Despite the promised financial security, it didn't end well for many of the particpants

Absolutely. The W'Indies players had a very rough time and cricket lost some truly great talent. Goes to show just how good the WIndies were in the 80's as they still hammered everyone out of sight.

Gwylan · Jan 15, 2021

Charity Shield 1910 said:
Absolutely. The W'Indies players had a very rough time and cricket lost some truly great talent. Goes to show just how good the WIndies were in the 80's as they still hammered everyone out of sight.

Just looked up the name of the book: The Unforgiven - it looks like a good read.

A rough time is half of it - by all accounts most of the players were social outcasts and have had a wretched life since.

Charity Shield 1910 · Jan 16, 2021

Gwylan said:
Fry was actually one of few non right wing cricketers - he was a Liberal parliamentary candidate three times. He did, however, have some weird ideas - such as fostering strong links between Boy Scouts and Hitler Youth but that seems to be more down to naivete rather than ideology

Ideas that seem weird from the distance of over 75 years and with the benefit of hindsight, is one good reason why, when people read history, they should try and use empathy. There is also too much "selective memory" so to try and use the past to prove a modern political point. For example, the term "right wing" is used to describe "The Nazis". What some people deliberately forget is that "the Nazis" were a branch of socialism. The clue is in the name "National Socialists". They believed in state control of the economy, of people's lives and did things such as ask Mr. Porche to create "the people's car" (the VW Beetle). They then mixed socialist economic ideas with popular social & national ideas. Links between the scouts and the Hitler Youth were before the crimes of the death camps and before the benefit of knowing what that branch of socialism would deliver. They also were seen at the time by many, as the lesser of two evils, communists or them. Although yes, they were anti semitic from day one and I do not underplay that. It is however important to think what people knew or thought and why at the time they did think or believe something. The past is not "goodies v baddies". Past politics and people's thoughts were every bit "shades of grey" as they are now. Far too much "they are the goodies and they are baddies" goes on nowadays. I think its a hangover from the fight against the National Socialists which rightly was portrayed as a fight between good and evil. But on the whole its not a good way to look at the past.

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