bhadebenhams
Active member
- Mar 14, 2009
- 328
Bring back the birch, that will learn them.
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[News] Incident in Nice, France
- Thread starter Is it PotG?
- Start date
Well something would have to change dramatically for Islam to get a political foothold in the West. The idea of any doctrine that eschews capitalism gaining any credible traction in the western world is frankly, laughable.
We are more likely to be extinct through climate change before that is a remotely realistic prospect. Not that it ever will be.
The whole notion is merely scaremongering in order to justify islamophobia. Don’t fall for it, you are certainly more intelligent than that .
Chief Wiggum
New member
- Apr 30, 2009
- 518
Appreciate your considered reply [MENTION=29192]Brighton Lines[/MENTION]
We have very similar views. I despise all extremism both left and right. I also view extreme Islam as a far right totalitarian threat and view it with the same disgust. See ISIS for details.
Where perhaps we differ is, specifically, with extreme Islam. It's core values are inconsistent with any of our current liberal Western values. Extreme Christian values are also abhorrent to me, but I digress. Take gay pride as an example. How many openly gay Muslims do you see at Pride? A few no doubt, but do they live open lives in Bradford or Luton? I doubt it very much. if they do they are extremely brave. Why is that? I don't really need to ask the question do I?
Welcoming, liberal, Western values of inclusion and tolerance, I would argue, are viewed as weakness by those extremists who, in the long term, seek to destroy and dominate us. Extreme Islam's goals are, after all, no secret. It is laid out for all to see. Nothing is hidden.The problem, I think, is that these extreme beliefs are preached and allowed to flourish unchallenged in many, but certainly not all, mosques. In more recent times prison and in Metropolitan France, the segregated high rise Banlieues that surround most cities.
I would also argue that Islam comes first for fervent believers. The country you happen to live in is secondary. This, to me, is a fundamental warning sign that should in no way be ignored.
The answer to radical Islam probably lies with the vast majority of moderate Muslims who do wish to live peacefully and who, no doubt are equally appalled at the level and nature of the extreme Islamic terrorism. How to achieve this in such a 'closed shop' is yet another question.
Macron is right to finally call out the problem in France. He appears to be finally waking up to it, probably because he too can see the direction of travel and finally acknowledges it. His honesty is refreshing. The resulting backlash from certain sections of the Islamic faith are telling in that 'attack' is the best form of defence. The 'victim' card is a very powerful one. Macron should be applauded and certainly supported by all Western leaders. Alongside the measures he has taken, open discussions with moderate Muslim leaders (who probably really do hold the key to the issue) should be intesified and if they exist, these leaders should be brave enough to stand up and call out the extremists for what they are and bring the majority of peaceful Muslims with them. Personally, I do not see that happening any time soon due to Islamic fundamental beliefs, intimidation and undestandable fear of those very same extremists. Therefore, sadly, I stand by my previous post. I'm not sure candle lit vigils and holding up 'Je suis whoever' for a few days is sufficient any more.
Appeasement never works. The analogy 'you can only feed the crocodile for so long before he eventually bites your hand off' is true as it's always been.
We have very similar views. I despise all extremism both left and right. I also view extreme Islam as a far right totalitarian threat and view it with the same disgust. See ISIS for details.
Where perhaps we differ is, specifically, with extreme Islam. It's core values are inconsistent with any of our current liberal Western values. Extreme Christian values are also abhorrent to me, but I digress. Take gay pride as an example. How many openly gay Muslims do you see at Pride? A few no doubt, but do they live open lives in Bradford or Luton? I doubt it very much. if they do they are extremely brave. Why is that? I don't really need to ask the question do I?
Welcoming, liberal, Western values of inclusion and tolerance, I would argue, are viewed as weakness by those extremists who, in the long term, seek to destroy and dominate us. Extreme Islam's goals are, after all, no secret. It is laid out for all to see. Nothing is hidden.The problem, I think, is that these extreme beliefs are preached and allowed to flourish unchallenged in many, but certainly not all, mosques. In more recent times prison and in Metropolitan France, the segregated high rise Banlieues that surround most cities.
I would also argue that Islam comes first for fervent believers. The country you happen to live in is secondary. This, to me, is a fundamental warning sign that should in no way be ignored.
The answer to radical Islam probably lies with the vast majority of moderate Muslims who do wish to live peacefully and who, no doubt are equally appalled at the level and nature of the extreme Islamic terrorism. How to achieve this in such a 'closed shop' is yet another question.
Macron is right to finally call out the problem in France. He appears to be finally waking up to it, probably because he too can see the direction of travel and finally acknowledges it. His honesty is refreshing. The resulting backlash from certain sections of the Islamic faith are telling in that 'attack' is the best form of defence. The 'victim' card is a very powerful one. Macron should be applauded and certainly supported by all Western leaders. Alongside the measures he has taken, open discussions with moderate Muslim leaders (who probably really do hold the key to the issue) should be intesified and if they exist, these leaders should be brave enough to stand up and call out the extremists for what they are and bring the majority of peaceful Muslims with them. Personally, I do not see that happening any time soon due to Islamic fundamental beliefs, intimidation and undestandable fear of those very same extremists. Therefore, sadly, I stand by my previous post. I'm not sure candle lit vigils and holding up 'Je suis whoever' for a few days is sufficient any more.
Appeasement never works. The analogy 'you can only feed the crocodile for so long before he eventually bites your hand off' is true as it's always been.
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cunning fergus
Well-known member
- Jan 18, 2009
- 4,744
I bet 20 years ago you would have been on here berating any posters saying that white British would be minorities in Britain in our lifetime.....
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...y-where-white-people-are-minority-401968.html
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...nority-in-capital-for-first-time-8405998.html
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/british-white-people-set-become-14830628
https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/white-british-people-minority-10-2158725
And that Mohamed would never be the top Boys name in England.
https://qz.com/1082778/popular-baby...st-boys-name-in-england-and-wales-not-oliver/
Change has happened and more is coming, no doubt heads will roll literally and metaphorically.
As long as those heads are those that support this change, happy days.
With absolutely no respect whatsoever, I couldn't give a **** what you think. You're a spectacular nonsense of a man.
And white british are not a minority in Britain. Not by a long, long, long, long way. That is simply a lie.
The total population of England and Wales was 56.1 million. 48.2 million people (86.0%) were from White ethnic groups, with 45.1 million of those identifying with the White British group (80.5% of the population) and 2.5 million with the Other White ethnic group (4.4%)1 Aug 2018
Ethnicity of the non-UK born population. In 2011, 7.5 million people living in England and Wales (13% of the total population) were born outside the UK. Amongst the 56 million residents in England and Wales, 86% were White, 8% were Asian/Asian British and 3% were Black/African/Caribbean/Black British.18 Jun 2015
Population of England and Wales - GOV.UK Ethnicity facts ...www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk › latest
And the reason Muhammed is such a popular name is because there's no range in Islamic names. They don't have many names to choose from. About 30 I think. We have thousands of names with thousands of spelling variants. It's simple extrapolation.
You deal in lies and you're not intelligent enough to pass it off.
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cunning fergus
Well-known member
- Jan 18, 2009
- 4,744
You don’t know the future, neither do I.
We know the past though, and this country (and much of Europe) has been transformed demographically in the last 30 years. That is a fact, regardless of the handwringing revisionism of Black History Month.
Events in last 20 years suggest that not everyone is rubbing along together, and this event in Nice is all too predictable. Most tragically of all now-a-days it’s not a shock.
It’s possible we are at the high water mark of such violence and we may move on to a new social epoch with everyone buying one another a coke. It’s possible it’s not and we will continue on down this path.
But as in the last 30 years demographics will change as we move on, and it’s a fact that this countries muslim population is growing, its over 3m with a disproportionate bias of under 20s, so that population is likely to grow more whilst the native white population shrinks, with its disproportionate boomer population.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/tran...eedomofinformationfoi/muslimpopulationintheuk
I don’t and have never professed to be intelligent, but you don’t need to be Tommy Flowers to understand what has happened in the past and is happening in he present MAY mean for the future.
You have a track record for being overwhelmingly optimistic about this change, time will tell.
There has been good arguments put forward above even by some of the more Right Wing Conservative Posters. So good that I personally think that I won't even attempt to contradict them.
That said. Western Capitalist Countries and many people therein have this first come first served Agenda's of "Race and Place""
By that I mean that they are happy to welcome the Labour , skills and knowledge of non white immigrants and utilise it to their advantage so long as they remain in " their place" for generations to come and we do this because they can identify them solely by a different pigmentation in their skin. That's the only difference and that is used to keep people down within Westers Societies.
Contrast that with say a Polish Immigrant coming to this country. Within one or two generations at the most. Their children look exactly the same. They speak with a London Accent or Yorkshire Accent. They are then seen as Equals within our society and are treated the Exact same as any 20th Generation white Person.
So this begs the question. Who are the ones holding us back from a fully integrated society ? The immigrants arriving or the people welcoming them ?
So for me it all goes back to " Race and Place "
White people see themselves as Superior to non whites and the Refusal to abandon that belief is what holds us back in moving forward to a fully integrated society in the Western World.
That said. Western Capitalist Countries and many people therein have this first come first served Agenda's of "Race and Place""
By that I mean that they are happy to welcome the Labour , skills and knowledge of non white immigrants and utilise it to their advantage so long as they remain in " their place" for generations to come and we do this because they can identify them solely by a different pigmentation in their skin. That's the only difference and that is used to keep people down within Westers Societies.
Contrast that with say a Polish Immigrant coming to this country. Within one or two generations at the most. Their children look exactly the same. They speak with a London Accent or Yorkshire Accent. They are then seen as Equals within our society and are treated the Exact same as any 20th Generation white Person.
So this begs the question. Who are the ones holding us back from a fully integrated society ? The immigrants arriving or the people welcoming them ?
So for me it all goes back to " Race and Place "
White people see themselves as Superior to non whites and the Refusal to abandon that belief is what holds us back in moving forward to a fully integrated society in the Western World.
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Hey man, whatever keeps your lights on and your brain ticking over. You’re wrong is all. It’s no biggy.
cunning fergus
Well-known member
- Jan 18, 2009
- 4,744
This is a classic post from you innit.
A strident and unremitting view on the future of a multicultural U.K. conveyed through a sentiment of indifference.
Anyone that spends time on this forum will know that for you, threads concerning politics and multiculturalism are very much a “biggy”.
You have clocked up 13k posts and largely from your constant patrolling of such threads.
There it is, if you can’t be honest with yourself on this, why should anyone else take what you have to say seriously.
A bit tragic really innit.
cunning fergus
Well-known member
- Jan 18, 2009
- 4,744
Isn’t the last part of your post the kicker.....
“White people see themselves as Superior to non whites and the Refusal to abandon that belief is what holds us back in moving forward to a fully integrated society in the Western World.”
To paraphrase, white people (or many of them) in western countries are quite simply racist.
It’s a great irony that you can express that type of view while you are living in such a western country, especially on a thread which is reflecting on the current events in France.
Remember the events in France include a French born teacher being beheaded by a migrant who was outraged about a lesson he taught on freedom of expression. I am not sure if there is a more terrifying example of the potential future problems western countries face. In short do we have censorship or do we have to just tolerate imported religious intolerance.
Sadly, in the way you have expressed yourself In your, for me, I think you are part of the problem, not the solution.
The thread had digressed to the problem of integration of religions and migrating populations. I merely ran with that and gave my personal views that migrators to the get accepted within one or two generations so long as they are White and conform to white Christianity.
I and someone with my views am not the problem. I am accepting of any religious views. I am accepting of any Creeds colour or sexual orientation.
You are entitled to your view that someone tolelerant and open acceptance points of view are part of the problem just because I dare to suggest that many white people hang on to control and power due to an indoctrinated ideology.
I was brought up with the same ideology myself. For about the first 20 years of my life I never even questioned it. But now that I question it. I am somehow part of the problem ?
I would question your assertions but accept you're entitled to those views.
cunning fergus
Well-known member
- Jan 18, 2009
- 4,744
You evidently have a strongly held view about white people (generally speaking), so when you say you are accepting of ANY colours, that’s not quite true is it.
I simply don’t buy the simplicity of the white people = racist, non white = oppressed argument because it was (and continues to be) white politicians that have facilitated huge levels of migration to predominantly white countries.
Whilst that has no doubt benefitted the wealthy (and business) it has been another story for the working class. That’s not me flying a kite, it’s a fact that more working class voters voted for the Tories in the last election than they did Labour, as they also did Brexit.
The white working class have never been in power ever, they have never had any control, if they had they would not have been sold down the river.
RandyWanger
Je suis rôti de boeuf
Pray for Lyon
Cool yourself, little man. It doesn’t t affect me in the slightest if someone like you doesn’t take me seriously, your loss. Calm down, hop off the internet for an evening, it clearly gets you upset. Have you tried essential oils?
pastafarian
Well-known member
NO
We have freedom of religion in this country. Its all man made bonkers of course and Islam is pretty bloody putrid, but people have a right to their religion even if others find them repulsive.
As long as they stay within the confines of the law this right should be protected above everything.
By the same token if someone wants to spout out loud about the Earth being flat, knock yourself out. No one has the right to stop you doing it.
People should have the right to shout their beliefs from the rooftops (as long as its legal) and others should have the right to protest and criticise those beliefs without fear of being silenced. (A huge failing of Islam as criticism of the religion or the prophet is completely frowned upon).
The key here is education, not prohibition. Science will eventually win. When enough realise that their creation story is complete fantasy and there is a perfectly rational explanation for things that previously could only be explained by saying “god did it”……then religion will finally end.
PS (to those who are offended)
Thinking the religion of Islam is nasty crackpot nonsense does not make me Islamophobic. If it does by your standards, then brilliant, sign me up and I will wear the badge. But I want a christianophobic and scientologyophobic and judaismophobic badge as well.
I am white. My family are all white. I am the product of white immigrants and from a large family who still live on the same Council Estate where I initially grew up.
My issue is with the Law Makers who fail to get " proximate " to the plight of non white people within society . They have no desire to get proximate to their plight.
They have no desire to get "proximate " to the plight of the poor working class either. Marcus Rashford has proved that.
I don't dislike white people as you suggest. I dislike the fact we are indoctrinated through education be it at home or through our schooling system to be insensitive to the plight of no one but ourselves.
That old saying of " you cannot understand the plight of another person until you have walked in their shoes " is true. And many white people would never be willing to walk in those shoes.
This thread has digressed to totally away from the original subject matter and I apologise for my part in that so I suggest we leave it at that. We obviously are never gonna agree on things.