[News] GBBM - the Great British Badger Massacre

Thunder Bolt · Oct 28, 2020

Westdene Seagull said:
It's disgusting - should never happen. What makes it even worse is that there is a vaccine for cattle to protect against the type of TB badgers pass on .... only it's banned .... by the EU !!!! Hmmmm .....

Partially true but DEFRA developed a different vaccine which didn’t interfere with the skin test.

“The only significant obstacle to a cattle TB vaccine is EU law, which forbids vaccination against BTB because it may interfere with the (woefully inaccurate) skin test. For this reason DEFRA has developed a test able to differentiate between vaccinated and infected cattle, the DIVA test.“

https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/eu-laws-stifle-progress-on-cattle-vaccination

Thunder Bolt · Oct 28, 2020

Tom Hark said:
I'd be absolutely THRILLED to see a live badger. Only ever seen one, dead at the side of the road. Still get a big kick out of seeing an urban fox. Draw the line at squirrels tho. Especially the little shits that lord it over my loft with their tiny hooves. They can fvrk RIGHT off

Grey squirrels are a nuisance but go to the Isle of Wight. Brownsea Island near Poole, the Lake District or Scotland to see the proper British red squirrel

Thunder Bolt · Oct 28, 2020

The red pepper kid said:
it is terrible what man is doing to wildlife, and the planet - were Doomed I say

I’ve just watched last night’s AutumnWatch on IPlayer which might cheer you up. It highlighted the reintroduction programme which has been happening over the last 30 years.
Red kites, ospreys, pine Martin’s, beavers, even storks last year.

Thunder Bolt · Oct 28, 2020

Tom Hark said:
I'd be absolutely THRILLED to see a live badger. Only ever seen one, dead at the side of the road. Still get a big kick out of seeing an urban fox. Draw the line at squirrels tho. Especially the little shits that lord it over my loft with their tiny hooves. They can fvrk RIGHT off

Just to add when things get back to normal, the British Wildlife Centre near East Grinstead, is the place to go. Badgers, red squirrels, foxes, pine martins, deer etc. It’s less than an hour’s drive away.

Dr Q · Oct 28, 2020

Sadly, the anthropomorphism of badgers by idiots like Oddie and Pwackham have lifted them to god-like status in British wildlife. The TB issue comes down on who you believe on the science. Also, the devastation to ground nesting birds and to the hedgehog population by badgers is massive and irrefutable. With no predators other than man, and the ridiculous protection of the species (understandable originally when it comes to baiting etc in the past, but out of date now) means badger populations are wildly out of control. Similar to deer, the populations need to be managed in my view.

Weststander · Oct 28, 2020

Tom Hark said:
I'd be absolutely THRILLED to see a live badger. Only ever seen one, dead at the side of the road. Still get a big kick out of seeing an urban fox. Draw the line at squirrels tho. Especially the little shits that lord it over my loft with their tiny hooves. They can fvrk RIGHT off

In all the years I've only seen one live badger, when one activated our back garden light a couple of years ago. Stunningly handsome, the perfect white and black stripes.

I've worked on land right over and around live setts, you never see them, they're so shy.

I had dealings with one of the country's badger experts and he explained that the road kill is because sadly they forage at night in the gutter of roads. I've never killed one myself, but speeding night time drivers driving closer to the side of the road do all the damage.

The culling was unnecessary and immoral, only blinkered farmers voices were listened to.

Surf's Up · Oct 28, 2020

Pavilionaire said:
It is wrong, and it's always the badgers. When was the last time anyone smashed a beaver?

er...fairly recently actually

Thunder Bolt · Oct 28, 2020

Dr Q said:
Sadly, the anthropomorphism of badgers by idiots like Oddie and Pwackham have lifted them to god-like status in British wildlife. The TB issue comes down on who you believe on the science. Also, the devastation to ground nesting birds and to the hedgehog population by badgers is massive and irrefutable. With no predators other than man, and the ridiculous protection of the species (understandable originally when it comes to baiting etc in the past, but out of date now) means badger populations are wildly out of control. Similar to deer, the populations need to be managed in my view.

Chris Packham is very unsentimental especially as he is on the spectrum. The New Forest is teeming with badgers which haven’t affected nesting birds.

Hedgehog numbers have been decimated by removal of hedgerows and concreting urban gardens

Weststander · Oct 28, 2020

Thunder Bolt said:
Chris Packham is very unsentimental especially as he is on the spectrum. The New Forest is teeming with badgers which haven’t affected nesting birds.

Hedgehog numbers have been decimated by removal of hedgerows and concreting urban gardens

... and fences blocking the movement of hedgehogs to give them a wide enough terrain.

Love Chris Packham. With David Attenborough, one of the good guys, who passionately care about this planet.

abc · Oct 28, 2020

Wardy's twin said:
. The Studies have shown that the recent surge came post the Foot & Mouth epidemic which led to greatly reduced checking on farm animals that were spread across the country in the restocking phase. Other factors are poor farm practises where food stuffs are not kept properly secure. Its not due to badgers suckling from cows they avoid them. There is also the other great myth that badgers are wiping out the hedgehogs, they certainly predate them on occasion but as they have co-existed for many thousands of years they are not the cause of their demise.

A lot of this is simply untrue and understandable emotion doesn't make it right. I do not support the culling but:

The huge rise in TB has nothing to do with Foot and Mouth. It has happened ever since Badgers became a protected species which has led their number to increase exponentially. Whether we like it or not, badgers only have man as a predator in today's world and legal protection removed the only control on their population. TB is only a problem in badgers when the population gets too high in a given area and disease spreads amongst them. There are many, many badger sets that have no TB at all but it exists where the population density gets too high and disease can take hold. If we really care about badgers then we would be looking at strategies to reduce TB in badgers for the sake of the badger as it is a truly awful way for a badger to die (like mixi in rabbits).

Badgers are indeed attracted to farms but not because of 'poor farm practices' but because cattle are fed outside which is better than them being shut away 24/7 in a secure building like battery hens. At the end of the day badgers and cattle share open countryside. But either way, the standard of animal husbandry, farm security etc is far higher now than it was say 50 years ago but 50 years ago we did not have excessive TB in badgers - but they were not a protected species. Of course badgers don't suckle from cows, the cows wouldn't let them!

It is not a myth that badgers are a principal cause of the hedgehog's decline. Badgers are the only animal that can kill a hedgehog when in its protected ball and hedgehogs are a staple food for a badger. The collapse in hedgehog population directly correlates with the rise in badger numbers and the decision to make them a protected species.

TB spreads from badgers to cattle but only, obviously, from infected badgers. Many farmers are opposed to culling but also many support it out of desperation.

None of this is a reason to support the cull and, I repeat, I do not. But we do have to consider how the badger population is managed at a sustainable level for the sake of the badger, the hedgehog and yes cattle too.

Wardy's twin · Oct 28, 2020

abc said:
A lot of this is simply untrue and understandable emotion doesn't make it right. I do not support the culling but:

The huge rise in TB has nothing to do with Foot and Mouth. It has happened ever since Badgers became a protected species which has led their number to increase exponentially. Whether we like it or not, badgers only have man as a predator in today's world and legal protection removed the only control on their population. TB is only a problem in badgers when the population gets too high in a given area and disease spreads amongst them. There are many, many badger sets that have no TB at all but it exists where the population density gets too high and disease can take hold. If we really care about badgers then we would be looking at strategies to reduce TB in badgers for the sake of the badger as it is a truly awful way for a badger to die (like mixi in rabbits).

Badgers are indeed attracted to farms but not because of 'poor farm practices' but because cattle are fed outside which is better than them being shut away 24/7 in a secure building like battery hens. At the end of the day badgers and cattle share open countryside. But either way, the standard of animal husbandry, farm security etc is far higher now than it was say 50 years ago but 50 years ago we did not have excessive TB in badgers - but they were not a protected species. Of course badgers don't suckle from cows, the cows wouldn't let them!

It is not a myth that badgers are a principal cause of the hedgehog's decline. Badgers are the only animal that can kill a hedgehog when in its protected ball and hedgehogs are a staple food for a badger. The collapse in hedgehog population directly correlates with the rise in badger numbers and the decision to make them a protected species.

TB spreads from badgers to cattle but only, obviously, from infected badgers. Many farmers are opposed to culling but also many support it out of desperation.

None of this is a reason to support the cull and, I repeat, I do not. But we do have to consider how the badger population is managed at a sustainable level for the sake of the badger, the hedgehog and yes cattle too.

Thanks for your reply. I did ask at the beginning does anyone have a counter argument that they could present. I guess our views are shaped by where you take your information from but to say my comments are blatantly untrue needs a counter and needs you to provide evidence (papers) that support that opinion until that point what you say is just a denial of my truth.

Yes badgers do kill hedgehogs, but they have been doing that for many thousands of years without the serious decline in hedgehog population. the real cause for their declines lies in the destruction of their habitat and pesticides (including things like slug pellets) .

There is no evidence that the badger population has grown massively in the time of the current growth in TB in cattle and plenty of evidence to indicate that the increase in TB rates occurred post 2001 and also supplementary evidence that average herd size has doubled in that same window. As the disease mainly spreads from cattle to cattle NOT badger to cattle then quite clearly larger herds will increase the rate of spread among individuals. Note TB can be spread in many ways and by many animals ( sheep, foxes, man, foxhounds and management of the farm e.g. slurry). Read the RSPCA document on this.

Not sure what % of farmers are against killing of badgers but there is an inference in what you wrote that badgers were controlled prior to being made a protected species which if that was as effective as you said would mean few would be against killing them. It is the National Farmers Union which is pushing for the cull and they are pushing on an open door with the present government. That said there are some farmers who are against it and one in Dorset has set the bar about how farms should be managed.

Yes this is an emotional debate as badgers are an iconic animal but that does not cloud the fact that culling badgers is not the solution to the problem. TB in cattle will exist even if every badger is killed (estimate is that 6% of badgers have TB and most do not die from it). The badger population like all animal populations are self regulating over time , some populations in oxfordshire had already seen a natural decline prior to culling.

Note if all the badgers are wiped out the hedgehogs might see an increase in numbers as there will be fewer competitors for the worms, slugs and snails which are badgers primary food source.

swindonseagull · Oct 28, 2020

2 doors down in Swindon....we still have badgers that come in our gardens....but he has left a large gap under his fence to let animals in.

Wardy's twin · Oct 28, 2020

Dr Q said:
Sadly, the anthropomorphism of badgers by idiots like Oddie and Pwackham have lifted them to god-like status in British wildlife. The TB issue comes down on who you believe on the science. Also, the devastation to ground nesting birds and to the hedgehog population by badgers is massive and irrefutable. With no predators other than man, and the ridiculous protection of the species (understandable originally when it comes to baiting etc in the past, but out of date now) means badger populations are wildly out of control. Similar to deer, the populations need to be managed in my view.

So you insult people as the main thrust of your argument as you know you can't win on moral or factual grounds.

Badgers are not the problem its the way man has f*cked the environment. The culling is not the solution and TB has increased mainly since checks on animal movements were relaxed. Badgers surely do take hedgehogs and ground nesting birds but they are the tip of the iceberg not the main villain. Farming practises need looking at - a recent study has shown that putting sheep in marginal areas has also had an impact on ground nesting birds (trampling them) and sheep also spread TB so why not cull them?

Culling is not the solution to TB , it won't be eradicated by killing all the badgers. The cull needs to stop to allow a proper countryside plan to be put in place backed by proper science rather than those with a vested (financial) interest. Culling is popular because its a money spinner for people who shoot.

Wardy's twin · Oct 28, 2020

e77 said:
I can't see it being a breakout hit like the Great British Bake Off, TBH.

it is among those who are making a lot of money out of shooting them...

lawros left foot · Oct 28, 2020

My father was a cow herdsman for 30 years. He maintained that a good herdsman would never have bovine TB in his herd.

Wardy's twin · Oct 28, 2020

beorhthelm said:
i recall a long time ago reading something fairly even handed, verdict on preventing TB spread was mixed. the thing that stuck was that culling kept the badger population healthy, in areas without a cull they have all sorts of diseases.

Not particularly healthy if you are the one shot...

Last figures i read were that between 4% to 6% of badgers had TB and very few of them died of it.

Most recent research shows that culling is not going to solve the problem and even establishment organisations like the RSPCA say farmers need to do a lot better...

Wardy's twin · Oct 28, 2020

this is brilliant for those who like badgers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkXUUA99uKg

Lenny Rider · Oct 29, 2020

Against the cull, but ironically we currently can’t use a part of Durrington Cemetery because of an existing badger set, I wonder how long Worthing Borough Council will let it go on for as each grave is effectively £2,500 income to the local authority?

Tyrone Biggums · Oct 29, 2020

Not just the UK.

We have Kangaroo culls here when the populations get far too large.

Too many of them and it impacts other native animals and land a lot.

Wardy's twin · Oct 29, 2020

lawros left foot said:
My father was a cow herdsman for 30 years. He maintained that a good herdsman would never have bovine TB in his herd.

I was surprised when i read the RSPCA report as they were quite damning. The RSPCA is not known for being radical anti-establishment.

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[News] GBBM - the Great British Badger Massacre

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