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[Football] Marcus Rashford



peterward

peterward

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Nov 11, 2009
11,340
dingodan said:
It's not the governments responsibility to manage the economy. The people manage the economy. The governments responsibility is to provide conditions conducive to a healthy economy. Low taxes, minimul neccessary regulation, minimal public debt.

Trust me when I say this, the more the government "looks after children", the more parents will abdicate that responsibility. That wouldn't be a good thing.
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Look I'm centrist and economically I honestly believe lower tax economies (inc corporation tax) are proven to add the most amount into the treasury after all associated taxation like VAT is added and what that does for business and employment. No ideology personally other than what system brings in the highest yield into the treasury for spending on social justice programs.

But you cant say that is is a monopoly fiscal position, or even a majority political opinion - most left or liberal parties will believe in a more centralised form of government and a higher tax economy with things like keynsian economics - its a different school of thought entirely. Many will argue for it, you cant state your own world view as definitive - I would personally argue against high corporation taxes or any ideological tax where the their is a negative net benefit to the treasury.

But there is a balance in the middle between sensible regulation and government involvement versus too much or too little of either. Which is often where the 2 main political parties sit imho.
 




M

maffew

Well-known member
Dec 10, 2003
8,870
Worcester England
Erm why cant Rashford and politics be mixed together in the thread seeing as hes been totally taking on political issues most of the year, and been mighty impressive too?
 


dingodan

dingodan

New member
Feb 16, 2011
10,080
Thunder Bolt said:
Definition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
a member of the British cabinet in charge of the public income and expenditure


You have a very low opinion of parents. Most parents would go without to make sure their children don't
Click to expand...

Being in charge of public finances is not "managing the economy". In fact, nobody can manage the economy, the very concept is flawed. The economy is a complex web of an incalculable number of decisions made by everyone in each moment. Attempting to "manage the economy" is likely to be as successful as attempting to "manage the weather".

On your other point, you should never do for people what they can do for themselves. Doing so feels good, but it doesn't help them, it hurts them, it robs them of their independence. Once you lose that, it's hard to get back again.
 


Bold Seagull

Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
29,787
Hove
dingodan said:
It's not the governments responsibility to manage the economy. The people manage the economy. The governments responsibility is to provide conditions conducive to a healthy economy. Low taxes, minimul neccessary regulation, minimal public debt.

Trust me when I say this, the more the government "looks after children", the more parents will abdicate that responsibility. That wouldn't be a good thing.
Click to expand...

Democracy makes governments, good governance makes good society, a good society makes good decisions.

Governments that appear to do well for education, the environment, transport, heathcare and welfare tend to have higher taxation, strong regulation and also low public debt.

Minimal regulation is a race to the bottom of the pile as standards will always be undercut for profit, as will responsibility to the environment and other matters.

All you've spouted when you say 'trust me' is just right wing ideology. Trust me when I say this, your statement is nothing more than a hollow opinion.
 


zefarelly

zefarelly

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 7, 2003
21,800
Sussex, by the sea
dingodan said:
.

On your other point, you should never do for people what they can do for themselves. Doing so feels good, but it doesn't help them, it hurts them, it robs them of their independence. Once you lose that, it's hard to get back again.
Click to expand...

There's a reasonable chance those in biggest hardships problems are rooted a few generations ago when the industries they relied on were decimated by the actions of previous governemnts with a similar ethos. They've further been driven down by globalisation which has driven quality and standards down to keep them happy but controllably poor. We have an ever growing underclass in this country. something most of the 1900's did its best to eradicate.
 




Bozza

Bozza

You can change this
Helpful Moderator
Jul 4, 2003
55,717
Back in Sussex
Simster said:
You can't see why this government might reflect on people's feelings about their nationality? Really? So to give an extreme example, you don't look at Haiti, for example, and think "tin pot corrupt country"?

This government embarrasses us on an international stage. They are corrupt, they are liars and they are so useless that they are probably the worst government we will ever see. And to make matters worse, they were elected with a massive majority which suggests our countrymen were too moronic to see this coming. So yes, the state of our country embarrasses me.
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Nope. We're talking about someone I didn't vote for, who was voted for by people I don't agree with, who is doing things I think are wrong in a country I happen to have been born in by chance.

How can I be embarrassed when every single element of it pretty much has nothing to do with me and is outside my control? I could have been born in Haiti...

If I'd voted for the current government, then perhaps I would feel embarrassed, to a degree, but I didn't.

I felt embarrassed when I slept in a hedge in the middle of Bristol after a heavy night out, because that was within my control. Well sort of, anyway.
 


Bozza

Bozza

You can change this
Helpful Moderator
Jul 4, 2003
55,717
Back in Sussex
Quick follow-up...

What is in my control, to a degree, is how the school I interact with helps those in need, which is why I put myself forward to be a trustee, a position I have held for some years, and continue to do so.
 


peterward

peterward

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Nov 11, 2009
11,340
Bold Seagull said:
Democracy makes governments, good governance makes good society, a good society makes good decisions.

Governments that appear to do well for education, the environment, transport, heathcare and welfare tend to have higher taxation, strong regulation and also low public debt.

Minimal regulation is a race to the bottom of the pile as standards will always be undercut for profit, as will responsibility to the environment and other matters.

All you've spouted when you say 'trust me' is just right wing ideology. Trust me when I say this, your statement is nothing more than a hollow opinion.
Click to expand...

I agree that Dingodan's opinion is a textbook fiscal conservative opinion, as yours is a left wing opinion. I honestly think the Lib Dems have the best balance of fiscal conservatism and liberal social justice (but for my own reasons their pro EU stance is a non starter).

I completely agree with you that a government should facilitate quality education and the NHS imho should be totally non political and put into a cross party governance position, but I absolutely do not believe that high tax governments do anything other than stifle economic growth.

To take the current governments corporation tax rate and what Corbyn proposed at over 10% more, it is clearly demonstrated the overall net receipts into the treasury would be lower with the higher tax, many businesses close to the wire would fold, many more would lay of staff or cancel investments, there is less income in the business to increase pay, there is less pay for employees to buy things and pay subsequent VAT etc. Low tax (if you remove ideology) will normally have higher economic growth and higher tax receipts than high tax economies which chokes growth.

The last 2 times labour have left office they have left the country bankrupt, and before the global credit crises is used as an excuse, other countries faced it without bankruptcy and our current covid deficit is higher than what Labour left and and I'm certain low taxation is the best way out of this hole for the economy to start moving.
 




peterward

peterward

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Nov 11, 2009
11,340
Bozza said:
Nope. We're talking about someone I didn't vote for, who was voted for by people I don't agree with, who is doing things I think are wrong in a country I happen to have been born in by chance.

How can I be embarrassed when every single element of it pretty much has nothing to do with me and is outside my control? I could have been born in Haiti...

If I'd voted for the current government, then perhaps I would feel embarrassed, to a degree, but I didn't.

I felt embarrassed when I slept in a hedge in the middle of Bristol after a heavy night out, because that was within my control. Well sort of, anyway.
Click to expand...

At least that night there were no sheets to piss on!
 


Simster

Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,177
Surrey
Bozza said:
If I'd voted for the current government, then perhaps I would feel embarrassed, to a degree, but I didn't.
Click to expand...
Oh Christ, please don't say that - [MENTION=28630]Hastings gull[/MENTION] will cry*.






*Or possibly abuse you and get banned from here forever - fingers crossed.
 


Bold Seagull

Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
29,787
Hove
peterward said:
Look I'm centrist and economically I honestly believe lower tax economies (inc corporation tax) are proven to add the most amount into the treasury after all associated taxation like VAT is added and what that does for business and employment. No ideology personally other than what system brings in the highest yield into the treasury for spending on social justice programs.

But you cant say that is is a monopoly fiscal position, or even a majority political opinion - most left or liberal parties will believe in a more centralised form of government and a higher tax economy with things like keynsian economics - its a different school of thought entirely. Many will argue for it, you cant state your own world view as definitive - I would personally argue against high corporation taxes or any ideological tax where the their is a negative net benefit to the treasury.

But there is a balance in the middle between sensible regulation and government involvement versus too much or too little of either. Which is often where the 2 main political parties sit imho.
Click to expand...

Be interested to see the proof. Stong economies tend to price their 'offer' accordingly, Japan and Germany both have corporation tax at 30%, of the G20 only UK, Switzerland and Singapore drop below 20%.

VAT is also a regressive tax, both on the indiscriminant application of it, and that while it appears that returns are high when things are going well, correspondingly it makes people worse off the more than spend. More is lost to the economy in supply and demand shifts than is gained in tax - the economist's classic deadweight loss.

Back to your point on corporation tax, if I have a great product, I charge the same or more than my competitors because I know my product is worth it and adds value to the customer. Countries that cut their corporation tax below the levels of their direct comparable economies are basically saying their product is a bit shit, but at least the tax levels are low. Corporation taxes don't have to be high, but they don't have to undercut everyone else either. That just allows the wealth divide to widen.

Completely agree with the ideological position though, and agree there should be a middle ground that you do see countries in Europe achieving what they consider to be centralist policies but here would be labelled leftism. All about context.
 




Thunder Bolt

Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Aug 18, 2009
65,429
Beside the seaside, beside the sea
peterward said:
I agree that Dingodan's opinion is a textbook fiscal conservative opinion, as yours is a left wing opinion. I honestly think the Lib Dems have the best balance of fiscal conservatism and liberal social justice (but for my own reasons their pro EU stance is a non starter).

I completely agree with you that a government should facilitate quality education and the NHS imho should be totally non political and put into a cross party governance position, but I absolutely do not believe that high tax governments do anything other than stifle economic growth.

To take the current governments corporation tax rate and what Corbyn proposed at over 10% more, it is clearly demonstrated the overall net receipts into the treasury would be lower with the higher tax, many businesses close to the wire would fold, many more would lay of staff or cancel investments, there is less income in the business to increase pay, there is less pay for employees to buy things and pay subsequent VAT etc. Low tax (if you remove ideology) will normally have higher economic growth and higher tax receipts than high tax economies which chokes growth.

The last 2 times labour have left office they have left the country bankrupt, and before the global credit crises is used as an excuse, other countries faced it without bankruptcy and our current covid deficit is higher than what Labour left and and I'm certain low taxation is the best way out of this hole for the economy to start moving.
Click to expand...

The Tories have tripled the National Debt. £12 billion given to Serco for a failed Track and Trace app, when the Irish offered us their version free of charge, which we turned down.
 




Bold Seagull

Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
29,787
Hove
peterward said:
I agree that Dingodan's opinion is a textbook fiscal conservative opinion, as yours is a left wing opinion. I honestly think the Lib Dems have the best balance of fiscal conservatism and liberal social justice (but for my own reasons their pro EU stance is a non starter).

I completely agree with you that a government should facilitate quality education and the NHS imho should be totally non political and put into a cross party governance position, but I absolutely do not believe that high tax governments do anything other than stifle economic growth.

To take the current governments corporation tax rate and what Corbyn proposed at over 10% more, it is clearly demonstrated the overall net receipts into the treasury would be lower with the higher tax, many businesses close to the wire would fold, many more would lay of staff or cancel investments, there is less income in the business to increase pay, there is less pay for employees to buy things and pay subsequent VAT etc. Low tax (if you remove ideology) will normally have higher economic growth and higher tax receipts than high tax economies which chokes growth.

The last 2 times labour have left office they have left the country bankrupt, and before the global credit crises is used as an excuse, other countries faced it without bankruptcy and our current covid deficit is higher than what Labour left and and I'm certain low taxation is the best way out of this hole for the economy to start moving.
Click to expand...

As said above, over many economies around the world, mine would be central position in their context. You label it 'left wing' because that is what anything remotely socially responsible in this country is labelled.

Take a look at the countries you are no doubt referring to that survived the financial crash without bankruptcy, and I suspect you'll find models of higher corporation tax, higher personal income tax, lower VAT, higher levels of public spending. It wouldn't happen in Germany right!?
 




zefarelly

zefarelly

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 7, 2003
21,800
Sussex, by the sea
Thunder Bolt said:
The Tories have tripled the National Debt. £12 billion given to Serco for a failed Track and Trace app, when the Irish offered us their version free of charge, which we turned down.
Click to expand...

That is treason and should be punishable by slow painful death.
 






clapham_gull

clapham_gull

Legacy Fan
Aug 20, 2003
25,301
Thunder Bolt said:
:lolol:
It has confused a lot of the right wingers.
Click to expand...

58035250.jpg
 








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