[Football] Future VAR referees

dazzer6666 · Oct 20, 2020

If we're stuck with VAR, quite like this approach (similar to rugby and cricket). Let's hear what the refs are saying......................

https://twitter.com/garytaphouse/status/1318234698057977857?s=20

rippleman · Oct 20, 2020

Bold Seagull said:
I mean, we are at a desperate point when you're looking at Craig Pawson & Michael Oliver being the best of the bunch at the moment.

Agreed. MIchael Oliver isn't even the best ref in his own home! His wife is a class above

strings · Oct 20, 2020

I'm sort of going off at a tangent here, but I would be in favour of having refs 'mic'ed up' as in rugby. Referees do not give post match interviews, which means that the watching public, or the TV pundits, never actually know the referee's logic for making a specific decision. In rugby, you may not agree with the referee, but at least you have heard the explanation direct from the ref's mouth

Yes, the mic may need to be silenced, so as not to pick up swearing. But it will at least allow for the ref's comments to be known. I presume top-level football referees are as good as the referees in other sports at communicating through the match. I did see a video with a ref in Australian football (soccer, not Aussie rules) mic'ed up, and it bought an entirely new perspective to the game.

In terms of VAR, my gripe is that it is being forensically used to review decisions, when we were initially promised it would only be for 'clear and obvious' errors (the disallowed penalty against Man United and the forensic analysis of whether a player is milimetres offside being examples of this).

Mackenzie · Oct 20, 2020

sydney said:
just look at our politicians , teachers etc. we are shit at everything because for the last 30 years people in power have brought in foreigners on less money to increase profits.......the only places this has not been practicable are the two mentioned above , two areas in which standards have plummeted.

Can’t agree with teaching standards reducing, with the shit they have to put up with from government it amazes me that anybody wants a teaching job. Nurses the same.

That’s a different discussion though.

Bold Seagull · Oct 20, 2020

Springal said:
The problem is - to become a referee means losing 3-4 hours of a Saturday or Sunday and probably getting £30 including petrol money.

After 2-3 seasons if you are decent you might get put into Youth leagues at Isthmian level and then from there could potentially make the step up to County Leagues, Non-League etc.

Then the big commitment and jump is into the EFL - but realistically you're talking a good 7-10 year to do so on crappy money.

I don't buy the notion that just because someone has played at any level means they know how to referee or control a game and should be fast tracked into any real level

It doesn't exactly paint a picture of attracting the best people to officiating does it. Given the money in the game, it seems a shocking system of attracting talented people to take it up.

At the last Rugby World Cup, I'm pretty sure something like 3 or so of the elite referees were former professional players. They seemed to have a healthy balance of referees who built a career from a young age, to players that may have retired through injury or fancied officiating.

The £25-£30 is brilliant for the youngsters giving it a go, we've got a few in our youth club did their badges at 14, then can earn up to £100 in a week if they can fit a game in on the Saturday, and 3 on the Sunday if they're lucky. The problem is talent assessment and progression. There are not enough assessors and support for these kids progression. They're left to it much of the time, when really their should be much more support.

jakarta · Oct 20, 2020

Persuade Nigel Owens to change Codes, would be a massive amount of Cards handed out at first but a swift demise of Backchat & Simulation...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yf3NdyeGtgU

Bold Seagull · Oct 20, 2020

dazzer6666 said:
If we're stuck with VAR, quite like this approach (similar to rugby and cricket). Let's hear what the refs are saying......................

https://twitter.com/garytaphouse/status/1318234698057977857?s=20

"You've just given a penalty against ManUtd, I think you've forgotten the money they generate worldwide. Why don't you review it on your monitor?"
"Okay, yep Pogba is wrong side and behind him, contact and Connolly gets hampered by his attention, I think I made a good decision"
"Remember it's a top 6 team, maybe look again."
"Looking again, looks a penalty, I think I got this one right"
"What about Connolly's hand?"
"What about it?"
"You could disallow it because he's looking for the contact?"
"There is contact"
"Yeah but you could overturn it because it is clear and obvious that the fraction of a second Connolly's hand is on Pogba's shirt, he's instigated the foul"
"That's bollocks"
"I'd overturn your decision if I were you, you've got your performance review next week"
"Okay, no penalty"

sydney · Oct 20, 2020

The Large One said:
No idea why you'd throw in teachers into the same level of societal respect as referees and politicians.

well you mentioned getting foreign refs in....which could work in theory , foreign teachers could not really work in practical .......teachers have had the power to control the classroom taken away ....it's not their fault but the standard of teaching has fallen in comp/grammar schools i would say .....and its probably delibarate.

McTavish · Oct 20, 2020

The Large One said:
At the World Cup 2018 in Russia, there were no English referees officiating - on the pitch, nor in VAR. One can possibly infer from that that the best, current English referees aren't good enough for the top stage.

The reason there were no English referees at Russia 2018 is nothing to do with the ability of English Refs. Clattenberg was supposed to be the English representative and when he buggered of to Saudi Arabia, it was too late to replace him (according to FIFA).

sydney · Oct 20, 2020

rippleman said:
Agreed. MIchael Oliver isn't even the best ref in his own home! His wife is a class above

pawson is down the rankings ....Atkinson is top knob atm.

Pavilionaire · Oct 20, 2020

jakarta said:
Persuade Nigel Owens to change Codes, would be a massive amount of Cards handed out at first but a swift demise of Backchat & Simulation...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yf3NdyeGtgU

Having the rugby refs miked up was a brilliant notion, and listening to/watching Nigel Owens ref is a regular masterclass in sports officiating.

I hope he considers a career in politics as he would make a brilliant Welsh First Minister. I love the guy.

GT49er · Oct 20, 2020

The Large One said:
If there's one group of people I wouldn't trust with officiating the Laws of the Game, it's ex-players. Have you seen the level of intelligence from ex-players as pundits ...................................

Yes I have. Some thick as mince, and some highly intelligent.

So, pick the intelligent ones - but for gawd's sake don't give them any referees training; we need their ability to spot what is genuine and what is fake, what was intentional, what was a dive etc.

dadams2k11 · Oct 20, 2020

Not read all the thread but ex players like Ferdinand, Nevile, Joe Cole et all should be the VAR refs. They have played at the highest levels and no the game.

The Large One · Oct 20, 2020

GT49er said:
Yes I have. Some thick as mince, and some highly intelligent.

So, pick the intelligent ones - but for gawd's sake don't give them any referees training; we need their ability to spot what is genuine and what is fake, what was intentional, what was a dive etc.

You make it sound so simple - as if all 'intelligent' players know, and all referees don't.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, it's nothing like as straightforward as that.

GT49er · Oct 20, 2020

The Large One said:
You make it sound so simple - as if all 'intelligent' players know, and all referees don't.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, it's nothing like as straightforward as that.

No, you're right, it isn't - but it should be, and that is where VAR and the nitpickers using it are ballsing up the game of football.

The Large One · Oct 20, 2020

McTavish said:
The reason there were no English referees at Russia 2018 is nothing to do with the ability of English Refs. Clattenberg was supposed to be the English representative and when he buggered of to Saudi Arabia, it was too late to replace him (according to FIFA).

There isn't supposed to be 'an English representative'. It's not as though England has guaranteed spaces for match officials for each tournament. It doesn't.

Secondly, even Clattenburg himself wasn't guaranteed a spot in Russia. He was on a long-list drawn up in 2016, (which Clattenburg removed himself from in early 2017). The next person on the list after Clattenburg from England was Michael Oliver, and he wasn't qualified enough. Even if he had qualified, again, there's no guarantee of him being on the final list. The final list was only approved in March 2018.

The Large One · Oct 20, 2020

sydney said:
well you mentioned getting foreign refs in....which could work in theory , foreign teachers could not really work in practical .......teachers have had the power to control the classroom taken away ....it's not their fault but the standard of teaching has fallen in comp/grammar schools i would say .....and its probably delibarate.

One, I didn't mention getting foreign refs in. I have an open mind on that, given the subtle nuances in protocols and practices between various countries' refereeing methods. Two, there are foreign or overseas teachers already working in the UK - mostly very successfully.

You have absolutely no idea about the standard of teaching in the UK, whether upwards or downwards, and are only basing this on your ignorant, pre-conceived notions. Come back when you have empirical evidence of a deliberate reduction of teaching quality among UK or overseas teachers.

Until then, it's not unreasonable to point out that your highly prejudiced stance on foreigners working in the UK, and thinking it will automatically reduce standards only marks you down as a small-minded bigot. It's up to you how you respond, but remember it will only be as a small-minded bigot.

maltaseagull · Oct 20, 2020

Bold Seagull said:
My thoughts are why professional footballers upon retiring are not becoming referees?

I'm not talking the multi-millionaire Premier League players, I'm talking any kind of semi-professional tier 7 or 8 upward. Is there not enough reward? Is it just seen as too awful to contemplate? Are the career paths of say a 35 year old starting referring too difficult to make it to the top level?

Rugby, Cricket and other sports have a pathway for ex players to become top officials, just doesn't seem to happen in football.

Given the total lack of respect from players on the pitch and the massive amount of abuse they get on social media, are you really surprised?

sydney · Oct 20, 2020

The Large One said:
One, I didn't mention getting foreign refs in. I have an open mind on that, given the subtle nuances in protocols and practices between various countries' refereeing methods. Two, there are foreign or overseas teachers already working in the UK - mostly very successfully.

You have absolutely no idea about the standard of teaching in the UK, whether upwards or downwards, and are only basing this on your ignorant, pre-conceived notions. Come back when you have empirical evidence of a deliberate reduction of teaching quality among UK or overseas teachers.

Until then, it's not unreasonable to point out that your highly prejudiced stance on foreigners working in the UK, and thinking it will automatically reduce standards only marks you down as a small-minded bigot. It's up to you how you respond, but remember it will only be as a small-minded bigot.

you what .......?? you have totally missed my point , maybe i have no idea re the overall standard of teaching i'll give you that ....i was not stating that foreign teachers working in the UK were detrimental to the standard of education at all , i stated that a Nigerian teacher was the first one to make propper use of the gymnasium equipment at our school after me being there for 4 years and never seen the wall bars extended.....?? i stated that English people have been conditioned to accept mediocrity and not complain... calm down... :kiss:

Springal · Oct 20, 2020

The Large One said:
There isn't supposed to be 'an English representative'. It's not as though England has guaranteed spaces for match officials for each tournament. It doesn't.

Secondly, even Clattenburg himself wasn't guaranteed a spot in Russia. He was on a long-list drawn up in 2016, (which Clattenburg removed himself from in early 2017). The next person on the list after Clattenburg from England was Michael Oliver, and he wasn't qualified enough. Even if he had qualified, again, there's no guarantee of him being on the final list. The final list was only approved in March 2018.

The world cups are run on a 4 year group of elite referee teams I thought, and I don’t think you ever see ‘multiple’ teams per country in that group. I could be wrong?

So the fact Clattenberg made himself eligible ruled the whole team out and you can’t put someone back in half way through the 4 year process. Even if Michael Oliver had been qualified enough, he still couldn’t have jumped in

https://www.fifa.com/who-we-are/news/new-fifa-elite-referees-start-preparation-in-lisbon

In FIFA words ‘preparation cycle’

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