[Albion] The "Potter doesnt play with wingers" myth

Swansman · Aug 10, 2020

I have no idea how this myth came around as it is really very easy to debunk: just watch the damn games. GP nearly always used wingers in Östersund and in Swansea and Brighton is no exception to this.

If watching the games is not enough, here's a few heatmaps showing where players spent most of their time on the pitch this season:

Trossard

March

Gross

Mooy

Justice · Aug 10, 2020

Have to agree, he wants to unfortunately we had to go more conservative in the latter half of the season. Full on Potter ball includes wingers.

Sheebo · Aug 10, 2020

Trossard plays different roles and sometimes left of a front 3 etc. March has done a lot left wing back and sorry of wide midfield. I just don’t think he plays with out and out wingers like we did under Hughton most of the time. Where did James play for Swansea as he seems an out and out winger...? So I do personally buy into it as I don’t see out and out wingers hugging the touch line - more inverted than normal.

blockhseagull · Aug 10, 2020

Groß and Mooy aren’t wingers.

The fact they find themselves in wide positions doesn’t ‘debunk’ the myth.

No one has said we don’t use the wings..... just that we don’t often play ‘traditional’ wingers.

vagabond · Aug 10, 2020

I think this rumour has also been perpetuated by AJs exclusion from the team.

ewe2 · Aug 10, 2020

Perhaps James from United.....

Seasidesage · Aug 10, 2020

Swansman have to disagree. I don't think anyone is saying we don't get the ball out wide, but we are not lining up 4-4-2 with wingers very often are we? (Thank God IMO)
Even the examples you've chosen back the point somewhat, Gross and Mooy are not wingers in the traditional sense even if they are lining up in wide midfield roles. The days of Knockaert et al hugging the touchline are over these days its more about interplay and creating overloads regardless of where on the pitch these happen to be.

Giraffe · Aug 10, 2020

I have to disagree too. How much of that time did they have the ball? The "wingers" mentioned in the original post have mostly played as right or left midfielders able to cut inside or one of a front 3 depending on the opposition and pattern of the game. How many times have we seen them rampaging past a full back in Stuart Storer/Will Buckley/Lua Lua style. They are proper wingers. No one would call Beckham a winger, and that is the style that Gross and Mooy certainly have been playing.

Guinness Boy · Aug 10, 2020

blockhseagull said:
Groß and Mooy aren’t wingers.

The fact they find themselves in wide positions doesn’t ‘debunk’ the myth.

No one has said we don’t use the wings..... just that we don’t often play ‘traditional’ wingers.

This

vagabond said:
I think this rumour has also been perpetuated by AJs exclusion from the team.

And it was debunked on there by me and [MENTION=15363]Plooks[/MENTION] who said exactly the same thing as [MENTION=4400]blockhseagull[/MENTION] above. We play wide at times and our attacking players are expected to be comfortable in a number of "postitions". Mooy and Gross are too slow to play as wingers. March played LWB and RW in the same half against Arsenal.

Guinness Boy · Aug 10, 2020

blockhseagull said:
Groß and Mooy aren’t wingers.

The fact they find themselves in wide positions doesn’t ‘debunk’ the myth.

No one has said we don’t use the wings..... just that we don’t often play ‘traditional’ wingers.

This

vagabond said:
I think this rumour has also been perpetuated by AJs exclusion from the team.

And it was debunked on there by me and [MENTION=15363]Plooks[/MENTION] who said exactly the same thing as [MENTION=4400]blockhseagull[/MENTION] above. We play wide at times and our attacking players are expected to be comfortable in a number of "postitions". Mooy and Gross are too slow to play as wingers. March played LWB and RW in the same half against Arsenal.

beorhthelm · Aug 10, 2020

dont think ive heard of this, myth or otherwise.

as noted Mooy and Gross especially are not played to their strengths if they are out wide.

Swansman · Aug 10, 2020

sheebo said:
Trossard plays different roles and sometimes left of a front 3 etc. March has done a lot left wing back and sorry of wide midfield. I just don’t think he plays with out and out wingers like we did under Hughton most of the time. Where did James play for Swansea as he seems an out and out winger...? So I do personally buy into it as I don’t see out and out wingers hugging the touch line - more inverted than normal.

James mainly played to the left, but sometimes centrally and sometimes to the right. In the last months of the season when he had "created" five red cards for the opponents, they tried to counter him by putting quick tiny full backs on the pitch instead of their first choices. Potter would then put McBurnie on the wing, winning every header and having James play centrally to harass the center backs.

Same thing in Östersund where he would sometimes deploy target man Alhaji Gero on the wing to play Ken Sema & Saman Ghoddos centrally. Unfortunately there is currently no striker able to do that in the current Brighton squad.

Wingers hugging the touchline barely exist in modern football as any modern manager knows that - generally, there are cases when it can work - having wingers licking the touchline just randomly crossing the ball into the box wishing for the best just isnt very effective. But to say a player like Trossard is not a winger is like saying Robben is not a winger... its just not true even if they operate in a different way than 30 years ago.

blockhseagull said:
Groß and Mooy aren’t wingers.

The fact they find themselves in wide positions doesn’t ‘debunk’ the myth.

No one has said we don’t use the wings..... just that we don’t often play ‘traditional’ wingers.

Well in my crazy world playing on the wing means you are a winger. The type of winger glued to the sideline just hitting crosses is a pretty dead concept (and its been that way for a good while with the odd exception here and there) and even more dead when the striker is 173 cm tall.

blue-shifted · Aug 10, 2020

The other point here is that given our glut of defenders, many are anticipating that 3-5-2 will be our predominant (though nobody would suggest exclusive) formation for next season.

It would mean the likes of Ali J or Izquierdo's limited chances of game time being even more ... well .... limited.

Braggfan · Aug 10, 2020

blockhseagull said:
Groß and Mooy aren’t wingers.

The fact they find themselves in wide positions doesn’t ‘debunk’ the myth.

No one has said we don’t use the wings..... just that we don’t often play ‘traditional’ wingers.

Nail on the head. We do have players that play wide, but not wingers.

I have to stress, it's not a criticism just a shift in the style of play. It determines how we get the ball to our forward players. I think we used to rely on players like Knockaert to beat a fullback and get crosses in to the box for Murray. Now we’re more patient and build those attacks by moving the ball. Strikers have to come deeper to collect the ball which means we don’t have the same style of service that we did when we played “wingers”.

Personally I think that’s why we’ve struggled to score goals this year, because we’ve lacked the player to link the attack and midfield attack in that style. But I fully acknowledge we’re a work in progress and you can’t expect things to instantly be perfect. The Lallana signing is the perfect signing for this role and I fully expect us to carry more threat next year.

Swansman · Aug 10, 2020

beorhthelm said:
dont think ive heard of this, myth or otherwise.

as noted Mooy and Gross especially are not played to their strengths if they are out wide.

I would agree that they are pretty far from optimal and at least Gross is most likely playing RM/RW because of the lack of options. I think a signing on that position is very likely.

As for Mooy its a bit of a different story. He dont have the pace or strength to battle with two DMC:s and needs to play where there is space to operate from - generally the wings and most often the left wing since its difficult for a right footed player to play through balls or get into shooting positions when playing on the right.

blockhseagull · Aug 10, 2020

Swansman said:
James mainly played to the left, but sometimes centrally and sometimes to the right. In the last months of the season when he had "created" five red cards for the opponents, they tried to counter him by putting quick tiny full backs on the pitch instead of their first choices. Potter would then put McBurnie on the wing, winning every header and having James play centrally to harass the center backs.

Same thing in Östersund where he would sometimes deploy target man Alhaji Gero on the wing to play Ken Sema & Saman Ghoddos centrally. Unfortunately there is currently no striker able to do that in the current Brighton squad.

Wingers hugging the touchline barely exist in modern football as any modern manager knows that - generally, there are cases when it can work - having wingers licking the touchline just randomly crossing the ball into the box wishing for the best just isnt very effective. But to say a player like Trossard is not a winger is like saying Robben is not a winger... its just not true even if they operate in a different way than 30 years ago.

Well in my crazy world playing on the wing means you are a winger. The type of winger glued to the sideline just hitting crosses is a pretty dead concept (and its been that way for a good while with the odd exception here and there) and even more dead when the striker is 173 cm tall.

So Maupay is sometimes a winger ? And Connolly ?

Just because a player finds himself in a wide position doesn’t make him a ‘winger’.

Heat maps also prove very little in regards to how a team sets up ...... if the team you are playing against has wide players the team will need to get wide to defend against it.

Many teams still play with wingers .... we just aren’t one of them.

Icy Gull · Aug 10, 2020

Guinness Boy said:
This

And it was debunked on there by me and [MENTION=15363]Plooks[/MENTION] who said exactly the same thing as [MENTION=4400]blockhseagull[/MENTION] above. We play wide at times and our attacking players are expected to be comfortable in a number of "postitions". Mooy and Gross are too slow to play as wingers. March played LWB and RW in the same half against Arsenal.

Heard you the first time, it’s a “mod” thing to not rate Ali J at all isn’t it? :lolol:

Albumen · Aug 10, 2020

I have said Potter doesn't play wingers. 3 of the players mentioned aren't wingers and March is more a utility player now. They're intelligent midfielders who use whatever space is available to create space for others, and if that means going towards the wing to create space for others they'll do that. Do they play like Ryan Giggs? No.

Swansman said:
I have no idea how this myth came around as it is really very easy to debunk: just watch the damn games. GP nearly always used wingers in Östersund and in Swansea and Brighton is no exception to this.

If watching the games is not enough, here's a few heatmaps showing where players spent most of their time on the pitch this season:

Trossard
View attachment 126919

March
View attachment 126920

Gross
View attachment 126921

Mooy
View attachment 126922

Swansman · Aug 10, 2020

blue-shifted said:
The other point here is that given our glut of defenders, many are anticipating that 3-5-2 will be our predominant (though nobody would suggest exclusive) formation for next season.

It would mean the likes of Ali J or Izquierdo's limited chances of game time being even more ... well .... limited.

Yeah I've noticed and I'm sure its going to happen in some games... its a pretty rare Potter formation historically. Personally I hope he is building for his old "primary" 3-4-3 again, though a bit scary in the PL. Most likely we will see lots of different tactics next season as well.

macbeth · Aug 10, 2020

I honestly think (and this is just from watching the games, i don't have any heatmaps or such to prove it) that the 'no-wingers' myth comes from years of watching us play under Hughton. In his formations, the wingers had to be very disciplined to keep the shape and do a lot of defensive work, and their primary objective was to get the ball into the box for Murray, or look for a late run from Groß or the overlapping fullback (which was a problem when none of our fullbacks (except maybe Suttner) could cross). they had to stay out wide. Hughton's be-all-and-end-all was the rigid shape of the team, to try and make us difficult to break down, and it worked more often than not, to be honest. Potter seems to allow his attacking players much more freedom to roam between the lines, and drift off the main striker, with the likes of Trossard often pulling away into a position from which he can shoot or run at defenders and the likes of March looking to find others (Burn, Mooy, MacAllister, Lamptey, Maupay when he drops deep) in space. The increased use of attacking wingbacks (particularly when we play a back 3) perpetuates this myth. Whilst they still are wingers in every sense of the term, and do take up wide positions (as shown in the heatmaps you provided), the lessened need for a rigid shape under Potter (who favours tactical flexibility in order to maintain possession) has created this façade that they're not really playing as wingers at all. I would also add that whilst I believe the above to be true, I have noticed we've become more narrow under Potter, so perhaps there are elements of this in play as well.

Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊

[Albion] The "Potter doesnt play with wingers" myth

Pro-peace

Dangerous Idiot

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

New member

VERY part time moderator

Tofu eating wokerati

Tofu eating wokerati

A. Virgo, Football Genius

Pro-peace

Banned

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded

Pro-peace

Well-known member

Back on the rollercoaster

Don't wait for me!

Pro-peace

Dismembered

Share this page