[Albion] Would a return to the Football Combination aid player development?

Lenny Rider · Aug 7, 2020

With Villa admitting their development policy has failed, stating 22 year old players should either be in or knocking on the door of the first team squad, so anyone of that age still playing development football clearly isn’t good enough, would domestic football be better abandoning the Under 23 system and returning to Reserve team football?
The Football Combination provided in the main quality opposition, and the chance for suspended, out of favour first teamers, players returning from injury and the younger players at the club to play regular football at a decent level.
If you talk to players of a certain age they clearly state it aided player development right across the spectrum.
No doubt an NSC statto will provide the answer, but how many former U23 players have played 25 or more games for the Albion first team since we moved to the Amex 9 years ago?

Braggfan · Aug 7, 2020

I think the increasing quality of the premier league, has led to a minority of players in development systems being good enough to play consistently under the age of 23. Obviously there are a few exceptionally talented players that do achieve that, but a clear majority of players don’t.
I don't think that's a problem with the development system, I think the standard of the Premier League has got better and a return to the Football Combination won't really address that as an issue, it really just provides an alternative way to develop players.
I think the route that we use at the moment is right on the verge of bringing through a crop of youngsters ready to play in the Prem, and looking at our development squad and who we send out on loan I think this will continue to be the case. I can imagine that from this point onwards we'll be looking to bring through 2 to 3 players a season into the first team. I don't think that's a failure.

father_and_son · Aug 7, 2020

Braggfan said:
I think the increasing quality of the premier league, has led to a minority of players in development systems being good enough to play consistently under the age of 23. Obviously there are a few exceptionally talented players that do achieve that, but a clear majority of players don’t.
I don't think that's a problem with the development system, I think the standard of the Premier League has got better and a return to the Football Combination won't really address that as an issue, it really just provides an alternative way to develop players.
I think the route that we use at the moment is right on the verge of bringing through a crop of youngsters ready to play in the Prem, and looking at our development squad and who we send out on loan I think this will continue to be the case. I can imagine that from this point onwards we'll be looking to bring through 2 to 3 players a season into the first team. I don't think that's a failure.

This. The loan system provides an opportunity for developing some players to move up through progressively higher standard games until they are ready for first team football. Ben White is the perfect example... 2nd, 1st, Championship,... PL football.

Other players may need a more nurturing environment which playing for a youth side brings. With a limited number of over 23's playing, they can showcase talent, etc.

I think the system in place now is really good and helps clubs at all levels. A 2nd team system will play into the hands of the big6 who can then buy up 50 prime-age players so opposition teams can't access them.

Stick with what we have and teams investing in academies can at least challenge the big boys or survive, financially, by selling on talent.

GT49er · Aug 7, 2020

Lenny Rider said:
With Villa admitting their development policy has failed, stating 22 year old players should either be in or knocking on the door of the first team squad, so anyone of that age still playing development football clearly isn’t good enough.

Can't argue with that point of view. Whether the return of the Football Combination would help, I don't know. It would be nice to have the reserves playing every other Saturday at The Amex at affordable prices though!

Braggfan said:
I think the route that we use at the moment is right on the verge of bringing through a crop of youngsters ready to play in the Prem, and looking at our development squad and who we send out on loan I think this will continue to be the case. I can imagine that from this point onwards we'll be looking to bring through 2 to 3 players a season into the first team. I don't think that's a failure.

Not according to NSCers 'wish lists' for who we'll get in and what our team should look like next season! Apart from White, none of them seem to figure in anybody's plans.

hans kraay fan club · Aug 7, 2020

Lenny Rider said:
With Villa admitting their development policy has failed, stating 22 year old players should either be in or knocking on the door of the first team squad, so anyone of that age still playing development football clearly isn’t good enough, would domestic football be better abandoning the Under 23 system and returning to Reserve team football?
The Football Combination provided in the main quality opposition, and the chance for suspended, out of favour first teamers, players returning from injury and the younger players at the club to play regular football at a decent level.
If you talk to players of a certain age they clearly state it aided player development right across the spectrum.
No doubt an NSC statto will provide the answer, but how many former U23 players have played 25 or more games for the Albion first team since we moved to the Amex 9 years ago?

To achieve your aim, surely all they'd need to do, is loosen the rules on the number of over-age players who are permitted in the existing U23 fixtures? Then more fringe senior players could get games, and the U23s would get the experience of playing with (and against) them.

studio150 · Aug 7, 2020

My view is that a return to the FC would actually hinder player development.

Why would clubs look to continue with an U23 team, when they can give a run out for the 14 players who didn't start the weekend league game. Decisions on young players will be made earlier and many who could develop later will be released.

The Villa development policy has failed probably because they are poor at spotting and getting youngsters to the club, have poor development coaches and have not focused funds correctly to develoment area, so are possibly looking at this more from a financial viewpoint, and see it easier to have dump the development side and field a reserve team full of older fringe playhers.

The way that the Albion have built up their development programme should be seen as a benchmark for other teams to follow where their programme has failed to date.

timbha · Aug 7, 2020

Albion’s development system, like Chelsea’s and many others isn’t solely about producing a 1st team gem. It is also about producing players who can be sold abroad or to lower league clubs. It is a profit centre.
I see Southampton are also ditching their U23s for a reserve team set up.
To produce a gem from the Development set up you probably need to start off with a little gem, eg Rashford, Greenwood who even at a very young age rise to the top of their level. Keepers and centre backs may be an exception.

stewart12 · Aug 7, 2020

I feel like English clubs as a whole are producing really good players at the moment- probably the best period I've seen in my lifetime

Black Hill · Aug 7, 2020

Football Combination was a wonderful competition. Old players occasionally put team sheets on Facebook. Some of the names who played at the Goldstone on Wednesday afternoon returning from injury - John Fashanu, Paul Stewart, Denis Bergkamp. To name but a few.

I often used to leave school at around 3:15 in the 80’s and nip down to the Goldstone for the last knockings of a 2pm kick off.

Braggfan · Aug 7, 2020

GT49er said:
Can't argue with that point of view. Whether the return of the Football Combination would help, I don't know. It would be nice to have the reserves playing every other Saturday at The Amex at affordable prices though!

Not according to NSCers 'wish lists' for who we'll get in and what our team should look like next season! Apart from White, none of them seem to figure in anybody's plans.

Well it is the season for transfer talk and we all get carried away with it. I just think there's a lot of evidence from the club suggests they think the academy is working and are happy with what we're bringing through. Next season we could see Connolly, Molumby, Alazate and White, all products of our development squad and all capable premier league players. That's already a very good success from the current system. With potentially more on the way.

Guinness Boy · Aug 7, 2020

hans kraay fan club said:
To achieve your aim, surely all they'd need to do, is loosen the rules on the number of over-age players who are permitted in the existing U23 fixtures? Then more fringe senior players could get games, and the U23s would get the experience of playing with (and against) them.

This, although I wouldn't add very many more "overs". Loans largely take the place of U23s for anyone (like White) needing first team football but at a slightly lower level.

I have fond memories of the late 80s, sneaking out of my job at the Greyhound Stadium CO-OP as early as possible to get into the second half of a combination game where there would always be one or two equally sad mates who'd be up for a pint in the Hove Park afterwards. However, the standard was crap and most of the tackles x-rated. Anyone remember Mike Gatting playing in one of them?

And, for whoever it was who said it would equate to having games at the Amex, it wouldn't. The pitch needs to be looked after, but a certain number of U23 games are played there when it's prudent (may or may not include League Cup ties against Massive Opponents).

Albion 4ever · Aug 7, 2020

The simple answer is to go back to an Under 21 league with the 3 overage players + GK.

This was a bad move when they changed it to U23 and still is.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Perkino · Aug 7, 2020

If the premier league requires clubs to name a 25 man squad of over 21's then the only sensible arrangement is to have an U21's league to run alongside.

Requirements are that all players are U21 or returning from a substantial injury (following an op or out for at least 6 weeks) the only other variation is the U21 player for such a position is out injured so a 1st team can step in providing that 1st team player hasn't been involved in matchday squads over the previous month

zefarelly · Aug 7, 2020

stewart12 said:
I feel like English clubs as a whole are producing really good players at the moment- probably the best period I've seen in my lifetime

we had been churning out oceans of mediocrity if the National teams are anything to go by . . . . love it or hate it the PL has forced the issue of improvement.

Jolly Red Giant · Aug 7, 2020

Its all about the money

Codner pharmaceuticals · Aug 7, 2020

We don’t need Football Combination when we have Leeds as our development team

Seasidesage · Aug 7, 2020

Combination would favour big clubs. Villa's youth development is poor because they ignore it in the main. Everytime they need a new player they buy one without from the outside without any sort of a plan or strategy other than what they perceive to be the best available option at the time. TB is shrewd enough to realise that this way he would always be outbid by richer clubs and other than the odd gem the clubs with the biggest budgets will end up with the best teams.

Buying youth and from lower profile leagues may not always work but it gives us the chance to get ahead of the curve.

Cream will always rise to the top or nearly always. If you are good enough you will make it even if its not at the club you started at. The combo idea might raise the standard of the games but it would give the big clubs another advantage like they need another one and probably block some of the late developers from getting chances.

BNthree · Aug 7, 2020

Definitely think the current PL2 system for U23s isn't producing the results it was intended to. Like the OP says if you're 22 and still there then it is probably div2 or the Conference for those players.

What the answer is I don't know unfortunately.

Perkino · Aug 7, 2020

BNthree said:
Definitely think the current PL2 system for U23s isn't producing the results it was intended to. Like the OP says if you're 22 and still there then it is probably div2 or the Conference for those players.

What the answer is I don't know unfortunately.

The problem with 22 year olds playing in the U23's is they require a spot in the 25 to be included in the squad and it would take an exceptional talent to be given an opportunity at the expense of an experienced player. However an exceptional talent would probably have been given the chance before 22 years old, I want to see more players like Connolly breaking through

amexer · Aug 7, 2020

Not sure but think Brentford have abandoned under 23s and now play reserve games

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