[Football] Football commentators must address racial “bias” article taken from the BBC Sport site

Icy Gull · Jun 30, 2020

This thread is probably Bear Pit bound but what is your take on this article?

It covers England, Spain, France and Italy so I can only comment on England as I seldom watch foreign games with English commentary.

I get the comments about BAME players being picked out as being faster and maybe more physical than your average white player in general by commentators, but I can’t say I’ve noticed white players being singled out as being more intelligent or articulate. In fact I am often struck by the fact that foreign, rather than BAME, players seem to be just as articulate as British players, speaking in their second (or even third or fourth!) language

Anyway, interesting article and food for thought as I had never even considered this kind of prejudice before, other than the cringeworthy comments made by Ron Atkinson years ago, when he thought he was off mike.

Thoughts? I am thinking maybe overkill brought on by the current climate?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53226508

Green Cross Code Man · Jun 30, 2020

Whilst I believe we are very much in danger of too much navel gazing, residual cultural bias is inevitable in every way we express ourselves. Obviously this applies equally to white, black and other races as well. It would be surprising if commentators did not use stereotype and in most cases, granting that commentators are representative of the general population, they will act accordingly. Perhaps there need to be more ethnic minority commentators?

It is another argument than the one that the article sets out, but it interests me that there is a big push for more black managers, maybe that could apply to commentators as well. The counterpoint to that, and I have never seen this discussed, is that no-one is calling for more white players in football and fewer black. I find this curious as surely it should work both ways.

To make it clear, I believe everyone should be judged upon merit and that everyone should have an equal chance of getting any job, I am not in favour of positive discrimination.

Bakero · Jun 30, 2020

Icy Gull said:
This thread is probably Bear Pit bound but what is your take on this article?

It covers England, Spain, France and Italy so I can only comment on England as I seldom watch foreign games with English commentary.

I get the comments about BAME players being picked out as being faster and maybe more physical than your average white player in general by commentators, but I can’t say I’ve noticed white players being singled out as being more intelligent or articulate. In fact I am often struck by the fact that foreign, rather than BAME, players seem to be just as articulate as British players, speaking in their second (or even third or fourth!) language

Anyway, interesting article and food for thought as I had never even considered this kind of prejudice before, other than the cringeworthy comments made by Ron Atkinson years ago, when he thought he was off mike.

Thoughts? I am thinking maybe overkill brought on by the current climate?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53226508

Have you never noticed commentators saying of a black player that he's hard for defenders to deal with due to his unpredictability as he doesn't even know what he's going to do himself. That's a common trope suggesting that black players are running on instinct. Another example is the greater focus on black players poor decision making; they'll wax lyrical on the player's natural ability but question his "football brain."

I read something recently about an algorithm that's been developed that can predict a sportsperson's race with remarkable accuracy based on words used to describe them.

Icy Gull · Jun 30, 2020

Bakero said:
Have you never noticed commentators saying of a black player that he's hard for defenders to deal with due to his unpredictability as he doesn't even know what he's going to do himself. That's a common trope suggesting that black players are running on instinct. Another example is the greater focus on black players poor decision making; they'll wax lyrical on the player's natural ability but question his "football brain."

I read something recently about an algorithm that's been developed that can predict a sportsperson's race with remarkable accuracy based on words used to describe them.

Only about El Galgo from memory and he’s not black! :lolol:

The Merry Prankster · Jun 30, 2020

Green Cross Code Man said:
To make it clear, I believe everyone should be judged upon merit and that everyone should have an equal chance of getting any job, I am not in favour of positive discrimination.

Equal chance of getting a job would require positive descrimination in many cases just to overcome institutional bias - see the tests using foreign sounding names when merely applying.

Jimmy Grimble · Jun 30, 2020

Haven’t noticed it much recently, but a few years ago I did wonder if black players were referred to as being a ‘beast’ or a ‘monster’ more.

Having said that, Akinfenwa of lower league fame is quite happy to take ownership of being called a beast.

Green Cross Code Man · Jun 30, 2020

The Merry Prankster said:
Equal chance of getting a job would require positive descrimination in many cases just to overcome institutional bias - see the tests using foreign sounding names when merely applying.

Whilst not wishing to compromise my argument, I agree with you. Education is the answer in my opinion. Although I am not so naive to suggest that I am free from any cultural predudice (I certainly hope I am in terms of racial as I fervently do not believe any race is 'superior' to another'), I am naive enough to believe that most people are decent and do not wittingly act in an unfair way. If that premise is correct, then maybe it is only a small step to imagine that better education about the terms commentators use for instance, will lead to fewer prejudicial comments?

beorhthelm · Jun 30, 2020

two observations, first lumping EPL in with some other european leagues with less than enlightened views on race may be distorting the issue in England. i hear black players noted for intelligence, reading of the game, etc. secondly, controversial i know, but maybe often a black player is stronger or faster than a white player. see also athletics.

mikeyjh · Jun 30, 2020

beorhthelm said:
two observations, first lumping EPL in with some other european leagues with less than enlightened views on race may be distorting the issue in England. i hear black players noted for intelligence, reading of the game, etc. secondly, controversial i know, but maybe often a black player is stronger or faster than a white player. see also athletics.

The thing is, stereotypes always have some element of truth in them. People of west african descent tend to have faster 'twitch' muscles (I think that's what they're called) so most top sprinters fall in to that category. But that's not equal to black players being stronger or faster. Among other reasons, that's why stereotypes are bad - As I said, they have a basis of truth but overall are false.

Is it PotG? · Jun 30, 2020

Won't be able to say 'Got a good touch for a big lad' about the likes of Peter Crouch :shrug:

Hugo Rune · Jun 30, 2020

beorhthelm said:
two observations, first lumping EPL in with some other european leagues with less than enlightened views on race may be distorting the issue in England. i hear black players noted for intelligence, reading of the game, etc. secondly, controversial i know, but maybe often a black player is stronger or faster than a white player. see also athletics.

Out of interest, can you name some black players who are famously lauded for their football intelligence by commentators?

Guinness Boy · Jun 30, 2020

Bakero said:
Have you never noticed commentators saying of a black player that he's hard for defenders to deal with due to his unpredictability as he doesn't even know what he's going to do himself.

Poyet said exactly that of KLL at a Seagulls Over London meeting IIRC.

The thing is, having then "tried to coach him" we did know exactly what was coming - stepover, cut inside, shoot or stepover, get read, lose it.

As Mikey says though that's the true part of a stereotype that allows the laziness.

Hopefully most fans, coaches and commentators can see that there are all sorts of different types of players of all races and backgrounds. Back in the day, the very white Vardy was one of the quickest around and today Harry McGuire is a bit of a beast. Then you look at the skill and reading of the game of a Kante or Fernandinho. And (sort of) talking of City, Pep has got a white kid from Stockport to play like a Spaniard.

So long as commentators call the game as it happens there really shouldn't be an issue. No doubt one or two of the old school ones who were pally with the likes of Big Ron may well display unconcious bias but, by and large, football commentary would be one of the last things I'd be looking to tackle while there are still far bigger issues in race relations in this country.

beorhthelm · Jun 30, 2020

mikeyjh said:
The thing is, stereotypes always have some element of truth in them. People of west african descent tend to have faster 'twitch' muscles (I think that's what they're called) so most top sprinters fall in to that category. But that's not equal to black players being stronger or faster. Among other reasons, that's why stereotypes are bad - As I said, they have a basis of truth but overall are false.

its one thing to assume a black player is fast. another to recognise an ability seen. are we saying we shouldnt comment when black players are fast, example Sterling steams past defenders (of unspecified race) for fear of racial bias?

blue-shifted · Jun 30, 2020

mikeyjh said:
The thing is, stereotypes always have some element of truth in them. People of west african descent tend to have faster 'twitch' muscles (I think that's what they're called) so most top sprinters fall in to that category. But that's not equal to black players being stronger or faster. Among other reasons, that's why stereotypes are bad - As I said, they have a basis of truth but overall are false.

Isn't it? There is some stat that the fastest 100(ish), 100m times have been run by black people. I do sort of think that people who's ancestry originated from different parts of the world tend to be good at different physical things, for example, east African distance runners. Clearly it's very difficult to unpick the physical differences from the cultural preferences of the area. Anyway, the way I see it, people with different ancestry have different physical make ups. Difficult to determine in every day life, but noticeable at the top level of sport. It doesn't mean that people from any given region are better or worse, just different.

Simster · Jun 30, 2020

Hugo Rune said:
Out of interest, can you name some black players who are famously lauded for their football intelligence by commentators?

John Barnes was. When he was on song, it was thoroughly deserved.

Mind you, your point is a good one - he's the exception, not the rule.

Edit: arguably, Patrick Vieira is another example. Obviously hot tempered and a bit of an enforcer, but he glided across ground like a footballing David Gower.

Silverhatch · Jun 30, 2020

I heard an interview with a black academic who said that black people are historically recognised for their athletic and fighting prowess, increasingly recognised for their creative prowess in the arts (mostly music in particular genres) BUT nothing will truly change until they are equally recognised for their intellectual prowess. I paraphrase “big, powerful, fast, rapper but thick - won’t get us too far!”

Lethargic · Jun 30, 2020

I haven't noticed it specifically against BAME player but it does standard out when there is a black manager involved, however that said I constantly notice the awful drivel that 99% of commentators churn out in the hope of courting discussion and controversy on any player which is just lazy, so there is probably a sub-conscious bias in play.

Any improvement to commentary would be greatly appreciated from me.

beorhthelm · Jun 30, 2020

Hugo Rune said:
Out of interest, can you name some black players who are famously lauded for their football intelligence by commentators?

Toure. Pogba. plenty of players get comments for intelligent passes, plays, reading the game. can you say you've never heard any such comments for black players? do you even pay attention to this either way?

mikeyjh · Jun 30, 2020

beorhthelm said:
its one thing to assume a black player is fast. another to recognise an ability seen. are we saying we shouldnt comment when black players are fast, example Sterling steams past defenders (of unspecified race) for fear of racial bias?

I think anyone should be more than comfortable making those comments.

mikeyjh · Jun 30, 2020

blue-shifted said:
Isn't it? There is some stat that the fastest 100(ish), 100m times have been run by black people. I do sort of think that people who's ancestry originated from different parts of the world tend to be good at different physical things, for example, east African distance runners. Clearly it's very difficult to unpick the physical differences from the cultural preferences of the area. Anyway, the way I see it, people with different ancestry have different physical make ups. Difficult to determine in every day life, but noticeable at the top level of sport. It doesn't mean that people from any given region are better or worse, just different.

You've kind of said it yourself - Being black <> to being of west african or east african descent.

Being black <> to being fast or strong or a good long distance runner. These are just good old fashioned stereotypes. We may as well come out and say all black blokes have big knobs.

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[Football] Football commentators must address racial “bias” article taken from the BBC Sport site

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