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  1. #11
    Members Hugo Rune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beorhthelm View Post
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    two observations, first lumping EPL in with some other european leagues with less than enlightened views on race may be distorting the issue in England. i hear black players noted for intelligence, reading of the game, etc. secondly, controversial i know, but maybe often a black player is stronger or faster than a white player. see also athletics.
    Out of interest, can you name some black players who are famously lauded for their football intelligence by commentators?

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    • #12
      Mod writer Guinness Boy's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bakero View Post
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      Have you never noticed commentators saying of a black player that he's hard for defenders to deal with due to his unpredictability as he doesn't even know what he's going to do himself.
      Poyet said exactly that of KLL at a Seagulls Over London meeting IIRC.

      The thing is, having then "tried to coach him" we did know exactly what was coming - stepover, cut inside, shoot or stepover, get read, lose it.

      As Mikey says though that's the true part of a stereotype that allows the laziness.

      Hopefully most fans, coaches and commentators can see that there are all sorts of different types of players of all races and backgrounds. Back in the day, the very white Vardy was one of the quickest around and today Harry McGuire is a bit of a beast. Then you look at the skill and reading of the game of a Kante or Fernandinho. And (sort of) talking of City, Pep has got a white kid from Stockport to play like a Spaniard.

      So long as commentators call the game as it happens there really shouldn't be an issue. No doubt one or two of the old school ones who were pally with the likes of Big Ron may well display unconcious bias but, by and large, football commentary would be one of the last things I'd be looking to tackle while there are still far bigger issues in race relations in this country.
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    • #13
      A. Virgo, Football Genius
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      Quote Originally Posted by mikeyjh View Post
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      The thing is, stereotypes always have some element of truth in them. People of west african descent tend to have faster 'twitch' muscles (I think that's what they're called) so most top sprinters fall in to that category. But that's not equal to black players being stronger or faster. Among other reasons, that's why stereotypes are bad - As I said, they have a basis of truth but overall are false.
      its one thing to assume a black player is fast. another to recognise an ability seen. are we saying we shouldnt comment when black players are fast, example Sterling steams past defenders (of unspecified race) for fear of racial bias?
      The English know how to make the best of things. Their so-called muddling through is simply skill at dealing with the inevitable.
    • #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by mikeyjh View Post
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      The thing is, stereotypes always have some element of truth in them. People of west african descent tend to have faster 'twitch' muscles (I think that's what they're called) so most top sprinters fall in to that category. But that's not equal to black players being stronger or faster. Among other reasons, that's why stereotypes are bad - As I said, they have a basis of truth but overall are false.
      Isn't it? There is some stat that the fastest 100(ish), 100m times have been run by black people. I do sort of think that people who's ancestry originated from different parts of the world tend to be good at different physical things, for example, east African distance runners. Clearly it's very difficult to unpick the physical differences from the cultural preferences of the area. Anyway, the way I see it, people with different ancestry have different physical make ups. Difficult to determine in every day life, but noticeable at the top level of sport. It doesn't mean that people from any given region are better or worse, just different.
    • #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hugo Rune View Post
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      Out of interest, can you name some black players who are famously lauded for their football intelligence by commentators?
      John Barnes was. When he was on song, it was thoroughly deserved.

      Mind you, your point is a good one - he's the exception, not the rule.

      Edit: arguably, Patrick Vieira is another example. Obviously hot tempered and a bit of an enforcer, but he glided across ground like a footballing David Gower.
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      Members Silverhatch's Avatar
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      I heard an interview with a black academic who said that black people are historically recognised for their athletic and fighting prowess, increasingly recognised for their creative prowess in the arts (mostly music in particular genres) BUT nothing will truly change until they are equally recognised for their intellectual prowess. I paraphrase “big, powerful, fast, rapper but thick - won’t get us too far!”
    • #17
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      I haven't noticed it specifically against BAME player but it does standard out when there is a black manager involved, however that said I constantly notice the awful drivel that 99% of commentators churn out in the hope of courting discussion and controversy on any player which is just lazy, so there is probably a sub-conscious bias in play.

      Any improvement to commentary would be greatly appreciated from me.
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    • #18
      A. Virgo, Football Genius
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hugo Rune View Post
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      Out of interest, can you name some black players who are famously lauded for their football intelligence by commentators?
      Toure. Pogba. plenty of players get comments for intelligent passes, plays, reading the game. can you say you've never heard any such comments for black players? do you even pay attention to this either way?
      The English know how to make the best of things. Their so-called muddling through is simply skill at dealing with the inevitable.
    • #19
      Members mikeyjh's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by beorhthelm View Post
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      its one thing to assume a black player is fast. another to recognise an ability seen. are we saying we shouldnt comment when black players are fast, example Sterling steams past defenders (of unspecified race) for fear of racial bias?
      I think anyone should be more than comfortable making those comments.
    • #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by blue-shifted View Post
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      Isn't it? There is some stat that the fastest 100(ish), 100m times have been run by black people. I do sort of think that people who's ancestry originated from different parts of the world tend to be good at different physical things, for example, east African distance runners. Clearly it's very difficult to unpick the physical differences from the cultural preferences of the area. Anyway, the way I see it, people with different ancestry have different physical make ups. Difficult to determine in every day life, but noticeable at the top level of sport. It doesn't mean that people from any given region are better or worse, just different.
      You've kind of said it yourself - Being black <> to being of west african or east african descent.

      Being black <> to being fast or strong or a good long distance runner. These are just good old fashioned stereotypes. We may as well come out and say all black blokes have big knobs.

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