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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guinness Boy View Post
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    But what we have learned since - and why this IS news - is that Boris was doing the equivalent of basing his opinion on an NSC thread. With all the science available, with actual qualified experts, he was still making political decisions and still listening, not to Vallance but to Cummings. And Cummings is basically just another bloke off the internet. He's a writer, a blogger and a man fascinated with data who will always follow the line dictated to him by focus groups. The mendacious ****er can't even follow his own advice.
    did we not learn from the Cummings attending SAGE story that he pushed lockdown? and we know Vallance was in favour of natural herd immunity. so im not clear who Johnson was listening to. i suspect neither until he was pushed to make a decision, by which time everyone was saying go to lockdown.
    The English know how to make the best of things. Their so-called muddling through is simply skill at dealing with the inevitable.

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    • #32
      Mod writer Guinness Boy's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by beorhthelm View Post
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      did we not learn from the Cummings attending SAGE story that he pushed lockdown? and we know Vallance was in favour of natural herd immunity. so im not clear who Johnson was listening to. i suspect neither until he was pushed to make a decision, by which time everyone was saying go to lockdown.
      Nonsense. If Cummings was in favour of lockdown he had a VERY strange way of showing it.
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    • #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by Guinness Boy View Post
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      Nonsense. If Cummings was in favour of lockdown he had a VERY strange way of showing it.
      it's counter-intuitive i know, but that was the claim.
      The English know how to make the best of things. Their so-called muddling through is simply skill at dealing with the inevitable.
    • #34
      Mod writer Guinness Boy's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by beorhthelm View Post
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      it's counter-intuitive i know, but that was the claim.
      "according to people familiar with the matter"

      If you believe a word these people say you're a fool. And you're not stupid. Don't you work with medical data? What would you have recommended?
      Brighton But Only At Home

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    • #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by sparkie View Post
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      If we'd gone into lockdown just 1 week earlier, then many thousands of deaths would have been prevented.

      The dither and delay is a real tragedy.
      Precisely, dither and delay.
    • #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by Guinness Boy View Post
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      Agree with others, this is a good, honest post.

      It's where I was early on too. My early thoughts were based on data from China on death rates that now looks quite wrong and a misunderstanding of how many people would need to be infected for herd immunity to take hold. Once this dawned (again, like you, around the model of 250k deaths but probably also seeing how quickly Covid took hold after the Feb half term here, when many had been skiiing in Italy) my position shifted.

      However, I am a non-expert bloke on the internet. The people I was arguing with (and my point back to them) was that they were also blokes on the internet, though correct. I doubt very much any senior politician reads NSC, let alone bases policy judgement on it.

      But what we have learned since - and why this IS news - is that Boris was doing the equivalent of basing his opinion on an NSC thread. With all the science available, with actual qualified experts, he was still making political decisions and still listening, not to Vallance but to Cummings. And Cummings is basically just another bloke off the internet. He's a writer, a blogger and a man fascinated with data who will always follow the line dictated to him by focus groups. The mendacious ****er can't even follow his own advice.

      This is the scandal of Covid in the UK. A politician who, despite nearly dying himself, placed populist dogma and whatever it is that Dom has over him ahead of science.
      Another honest post.
      Can I point out as someone who is slightly more than a non-expert bloke on the internet, that there is no such thing as populist dogma
    • #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by Guinness Boy View Post
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      "according to people familiar with the matter"

      If you believe a word these people say you're a fool. And you're not stupid. Don't you work with medical data? What would you have recommended?
      rejecting the source also rejects the claim he was influencing SAGE.

      i do work in medical information and that early there was naff all real data to go by, all theoretical models and predictions. you could pick a model to support your position.
      The English know how to make the best of things. Their so-called muddling through is simply skill at dealing with the inevitable.
    • #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by beorhthelm View Post
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      rejecting the source also rejects the claim he was influencing SAGE.

      i do work in medical information and that early there was naff all real data to go by, all theoretical models and predictions. you could pick a model to support your position.
      Sorry, my point is this is a government packed full of liars. Maybe Dom was there, maybe he wasn't. If he was there then maybe he argued for a lockdown he didn't believe in himself and maybe he didn't. I wouldn't trust them if they told me today was Wednesday and that's the problem when you spin so much, so often. But there is no doubt that either Johnson takes all his advice from Cummings or Cummings has something absolutely huge over him, or he would have gone during Durhamgate.

      Quote Originally Posted by Machiavelli View Post
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      Another honest post.
      Can I point out as someone who is slightly more than a non-expert bloke on the internet, that there is no such thing as populist dogma
      Yes, it's an oxymoron. I should have said populist cult (or changed the "l" for another letter, ha ha). I was trying to convey that they dogmatically stick to whatever they think will win votes.
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    • #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by Is it PotG? View Post
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      As has been mentioned before, with the amount of brains, intellect, foresight and pandemic expertise on NSC, then who needs SAGE?
      Sage needs to be looked at after this as well.

      They haven’t really covered themselves in glory
    • #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by beorhthelm View Post
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      if Dispatches want to do some real journalism they should look into who made those decisions about hospital discharges and carehomes.
      Maybe you should tell them ?

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