Liverpool vs Valencia and Cheltenham cost many lives

Green Cross Code Man · May 26, 2020

This is something imo much more worthy of getting in a lather about than Dominic Cummings and his perambulation around the NE.

At the time I always felt the government was too slow to act and this report seems to bear that out. It was crazy to carry on regardless.

BBC News - Coronavirus: Sports events in March 'caused increased suffering and death'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52797002

Blue Valkyrie · May 26, 2020

It is thought that these Superspreader events are a real problem.

Some will claim this is hidesight, but in reality there was plenty of ignored foresight saying in advance that they should be called off.

Green Cross Code Man · May 26, 2020

Of course I mixed up Atletico and Valencia but nevertheless.

Green Cross Code Man · May 26, 2020

Blue Valkyrie said:
It is thought that these Superspreader events are a real problem.

Some will claim this is hidesight, but in reality there was plenty of ignored foresight saying in advance that they should be called off.

Yep, and for a fairly cautious person like me, the way we carried on for those couple of weeks, culminating in those events was nothing short of madness.

Rugrat · May 26, 2020

Blue Valkyrie said:
It is thought that these Superspreader events are a real problem.

Some will claim this is hidesight, but in reality there was plenty of ignored foresight saying in advance that they should be called off.

I agree, nothing to do with hindsight. 'Everyone' was questioning the sense in letting those events go ahead, as indeed most were questioning why flights in and out of Milan were operating normally for several weeks after their outbreak.

I really hope lessons have been learned but I can't say I'm too confident they have

oldboyroy · May 26, 2020

And..looking back if it wasn't for Arteta getting infected on the Thursday I think every premier league game would of gone ahead as well as entire football league too... think just THAT weekend could of seen those new nightingale hospitals very much being needed a few weeks later.

Harry Wilson's tackle · May 26, 2020

I may have given the impression that I consider Cummings a disgrace, and am keen to see the back of Boris. This is correct.

However at the time, and subsequently, I felt that the decision to act slowly, so as to preclude pancic buying and a hysterical backlash (yes, I don't trust the public, and I suspected the government feels the same) was correct. Despite everything I am not about to change my mind. Yes, if we had locked down in February and brought in track and trace, compulsory wearing of masks and widespread furlough so people were not left in limbo, and if the public had acted responsibly, we'd have one tenth the number of cases and deaths. But we didn't. I am still not going to condemn the government for that, though.

However, what they have done since has been the disgrace, the failure to ramp up when the numbers started to scream, the dithering over PPE, failure to police social distancing and finally the introduction of 'be alert', in place of 'stay at home'. I am now listening to absurd defences of Cummings on the radio by tory MPs and lifelong tory voters. It was always said, stick a blue rosette on a pig and tories will vote for it. The bleat of weasels arguing black is white. Grim.

Swansman · May 26, 2020

oldboyroy said:
And..looking back if it wasn't for Arteta getting infected on the Thursday I think every premier league game would of gone ahead as well as entire football league too... think just THAT weekend could of seen those new nightingale hospitals very much being needed a few weeks later.

Yeah been thinking about the Arsenal game a few times... if it had been played, some people around here would possibly not be around anymore.

Its not like the virus was unknown at the time either. Most believed it shouldnt be played yet PL had no plans of cancelling until Arteta got sick. Just really shows how far up the sky this business is and feck knows if they should be trusted with restarting the season in a month.

ManOfSussex · May 26, 2020

Green Cross Code Man said:
Yep, and for a fairly cautious person like me, the way we carried on for those couple of weeks, culminating in those events was nothing short of madness.

Add Rugby Union to it as well. England v Wales on the 7th of March in the 6 Nations, with an 80,000 crowd including Johnson, taking place the same day Ireland v Italy was cancelled because of Covid-19 was nothing short of madness either.

I also know that in the Pro 14, Dragons (Newport in old money) played at home to to Benetton (Treviso) the day before on Friday the 6th and some Covid-19 cases in south Wales are being linked to it, as some Italian fans did travel for it.

Mellor 3 Ward 4 · May 26, 2020

Add to it halving capacity on the tube (5 million journeys a day) and closing lots of tube stations too - thus ensuring rammed stations/trains.

No wonder London Spiked so early.

The Wizard · May 26, 2020

Harry Wilson - The official NSC captain of Hindsight.

CheeseRolls · May 26, 2020

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I may have given the impression that I consider Cummings a disgrace, and am keen to see the back of Boris. This is correct.

However at the time, and subsequently, I felt that the decision to act slowly, so as to preclude pancic buying and a hysterical backlash (yes, I don't trust the public, and I suspected the government feels the same) was correct. Despite everything I am not about to change my mind. Yes, if we had locked down in February and brought in track and trace, compulsory wearing of masks and widespread furlough so people were not left in limbo, and if the public had acted responsibly, we'd have one tenth the number of cases and deaths. But we didn't. I am still not going to condemn the government for that, though.

However, what they have done since has been the disgrace, the failure to ramp up when the numbers started to scream, the dithering over PPE, failure to police social distancing and finally the introduction of 'be alert', in place of 'stay at home'. I am now listening to absurd defences of Cummings on the radio by tory MPs and lifelong tory voters. It was always said, stick a blue rosette on a pig and tories will vote for it. The bleat of weasels arguing black is white. Grim.

What we got was a public led lock down followed by government policy. It was obvious it was both necessary and incoming and there was a period of uncertainty, where deciding to work from home, without your employees approval, or cancelling an event or trip was entirely at your own risk. I know of a number of people who got ill after flying to Dubai around February half term. The destination itself wasn't an infection hot spot, the journey there and back was the risk. Easy to see with hindsight, but your argument suggests they favoured what was popular at the time over tough decisions. Not a great leadership style that.

Jimmy Grimble · May 26, 2020

The Wizard said:
Harry Wilson - The official NSC captain of Hindsight.

Aye? He’s literally just said he won’t criticise the government for their early response.

Billy the Fish · May 26, 2020

It's not just the event locations either, it's the planes, trains and busses that infected people sat on in close proximity to others.

beorhthelm · May 26, 2020

the article offers no evidence, no refered paper, analysis, not even a BBC graph, to support the position. where would these hotspots be, Cheltenham involves people coming in from far and wide. was there a spike in cases in Liverpool a week to 10 days afterwards, should be easy to show so why not show it. the total cases suggest maybe, with heightened cases in Knowsley, St Helens and Wirral, but other areas in London or major cities are similar or higher (NE has most cases per region?), suggesting nothing much different.

Billy Seagull · May 26, 2020

Green Cross Code Man said:
This is something imo much more worthy of getting in a lather about than Dominic Cummings and his perambulation around the NE.

At the time I always felt the government was too slow to act and this report seems to bear that out. It was crazy to carry on regardless.

BBC News - Coronavirus: Sports events in March 'caused increased suffering and death'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52797002

Christ, haven’t they let this go yet. There were millions of people travelling to London and all other cities everyday at the same time of these events yet all the focus is on sporting events which is ridiculous, in my opinion. Not much evidence in that BBC report apart from a few may have done this, might have done that etc.

Blue Valkyrie · May 26, 2020

Good evidence here ( click for thread ) :

https://twitter.com/aut_omnia/status/1251451703628574720?s=19

Green Cross Code Man · May 26, 2020

Billy Seagull said:
Christ, haven’t they let this go yet. There were millions of people travelling to London and all other cities everyday at the same time of these events yet all the focus is on sporting events which is ridiculous, in my opinion. Not much evidence in that BBC report apart from a few may have done this, might have done that etc.

London was particularly badly hit a little like New York in that it is not only frequented by people from all over the UK but elsewhere as well. That's no surprise.

You are not drawing distinction between necessary trips for work and completely unnecessary trips for sporting events. Canceling them out making them play behind closed doors would have perhaps saved many lives.

Mtoto · May 26, 2020

Green Cross Code Man said:
London was particularly badly hit a little like New York in that it is not only frequented by people from all over the UK but elsewhere as well. That's no surprise.

You are not drawing distinction between necessary trips for work and completely unnecessary trips for sporting events. Canceling them out making them play behind closed doors would have perhaps saved many lives.

Three million people were going to the cinema every week in February & early March, most of them on Friday & Saturday. That's 12x as many as went to Cheltenham over all four days, 50x the number that went to the Liverpool match. They went through a handful of entrances, touched the handles as they did so, into an enclosed space with air conditioning - not an outdoor stadium - about 250 at a time, sat there for a couple of hours eating popcorn, sneezing and with their hands on the armrests, then trooped out to let another 250 do the same, three or four times a day per screen.

Were those trips necessary or unnecessary in your opinion? And if, as you state at the top of the thread as if it's an indisputed fact, Cheltenham and Liverpool "cost many lives", how many more did cinema trips cost? Twenty times as many? More?

Green Cross Code Man · May 26, 2020

Mtoto said:
Three million people were going to the cinema every week in February & early March, most of them on Friday & Saturday. That's 12x as many as went to Cheltenham over all four days, 50x the number that went to the Liverpool match. They went through a handful of entrances, touched the handles as they did so, into an enclosed space with air conditioning - not an outdoor stadium - about 250 at a time, sat there for a couple of hours eating popcorn, sneezing and with their hands on the armrests, then trooped out to let another 250 do the same, three or four times a day per screen.

Were those trips necessary or unnecessary in your opinion? And if, as you state at the top of the thread as if it's an indisputed fact, Cheltenham and Liverpool "cost many lives", how many more did cinema trips cost? Twenty times as many? More?

I am never going to the cinema again!

And a well put point. However the Liverpool game would have had a high number of Spanish fans who were infected. That was before things really took off here. Being able to stop something that is known to carry high risk is preferable to stopping things which are maybe of a lower risk?

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Liverpool vs Valencia and Cheltenham cost many lives

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