Mandatory vaccination?

Mellotron · Apr 18, 2020

This will no doubt cause a binfest, hopefully people can respect others’ opinions.

IF we get to the point of a working, available vaccine - should it be mandatory? I’m sure all of us know of some who are staunchly anti-vaccine.

I also appreciate that some may feel the idea of the Government forcing people to have needles stuck into their arms would be a ludicrous overreach of authority.

I suppose the hope would be that a high enough percentage (95+%) voluntarily have the vaccination.

So - thoughts?

sparkie · Apr 18, 2020

I think the more immediate problem will be too many wanting it on day 1, not the stragglers.

Anyway, we don't need 100% vaccinated, a few % off that shouldn't make much difference.

Solid at the back · Apr 18, 2020

I'm not convinced we will get a vaccine. We don't have a vaccine for the common cold which is also a coronavirus. Also, we're still early on in learning about Covid that, why are we assuming that once we've had it we're immune from getting it again?

WilburySeagull · Apr 18, 2020

I think the ideal for community protection is around 95%. There are always some who for health reasons must not be vacinated.

Swansman · Apr 18, 2020

Solid at the back said:
I'm not convinced we will get a vaccine. We don't have a vaccine for the common cold which is also a coronavirus. Also, we're still early on in learning about Covid that, why are we assuming that once we've had it we're immune from getting it again?

Theres over a hundred viruses that cause common cold, only four are coronaviruses. I think if you spent massive amount of resources to produce a vaccin against any of these 100+ viruses, it could probably be done but with very little value.

Mellotron · Apr 18, 2020

Solid at the back said:
I'm not convinced we will get a vaccine. We don't have a vaccine for the common cold which is also a coronavirus. Also, we're still early on in learning about Covid that, why are we assuming that once we've had it we're immune from getting it again?

Hence the capitalised IF in my opening paragraph. :thumbsup:

However, I also agree that no virus has ever had this level of global effort or money put into finding a vaccine before, so to compare against common cold - of which there are far more varieties, AFAIK - isn’t quite accurate.

Swansman · Apr 18, 2020

I'm, as you might have guessed, against mandatory vaccination. Its too abusable. I dont want the next fascist, eugenics horny rulers to have these tools available to them and even less so with the upcoming nanotechnology revolution. Its the same reason I dont want massive surveillance states, it can be easily abused and very hard to revolt against.

Imagine i.e. Hitler having tools like vaccines that could carry microscopic chips to induce mass deaths or other things by just clicking a button, or a 5G surveillance system that could detect any escape route, or any dissident trying to sabotage their plan. No thanks.

beorhthelm · Apr 18, 2020

Mellotron said:
I also appreciate that some may feel the idea of the Government forcing people to have needles stuck into their arms would be a ludicrous overreach of authority.

I suppose the hope would be that a high enough percentage (95+%) voluntarily have the vaccination.

the annual flu shot can be delivered by nasal spray, so dont necessarily need needles. i understand the target for community immunity is about 60-70% so you wouldn't need so high as >90%, and i think can easily be achieved by voluntary vaccination. i dont think its worth government hassle of making mandatory, those that chose not to can take their chances.

and interesting raising comparison to cold, another coronavirus. it is similar and we do have shed loads of research into them, so we are not starting from square one with this variant.

Trevor · Apr 18, 2020

Bloody tricky question but I'm voting yes (hope I'm not voting for another phalidomide - my reasoning is that the possibility of killing someone else (or myself) is a very real one)

GT49er · Apr 18, 2020

Yes - and sod the cranks that object because their 'god' doesn't allow it!

Harry Wilson's tackle · Apr 18, 2020

Solid at the back said:
I'm not convinced we will get a vaccine. We don't have a vaccine for the common cold which is also a coronavirus. Also, we're still early on in learning about Covid that, why are we assuming that once we've had it we're immune from getting it again?

The common cold, 75% of it, is actually a rhinovirus, but that's neither here nor there. The main problem with the common cold is in any one year there are hundreds of strains so the effort needed to make hundreds of vaccines for something that isn't really a big deal is preclusive.

Provided COVA-19 doesn't come in 200 flavours then there is a much greater expectation we can make one vaccine that does the biz. And, sorry, I don't actually know if COVA-19 is a single strain beast or multistrain :annoyed:

This is a nice lay article and it wasn't behind a paywall for me :thumbsup:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/oct/06/why-cant-we-cure-the-common-cold

Harry Wilson's tackle · Apr 18, 2020

Back to the OP's question, we finally have a virus that, unless you are a hermit who shops online only, all deliveries dropped from a great height, and payment online, I would suggest it makes it 'attempted manslaughter' or even attempted murder if you don't vaccinate.

Diablo · Apr 19, 2020

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Back to the OP's question, we finally have a virus that, unless you are a hermit who shops online only, all deliveries dropped from a great height, and payment online, I would suggest it makes it 'attempted manslaughter' or even attempted murder if you don't vaccinate.

they`d only kill those like themselves stupid enough not to be vaccinated !!

sparkie · Apr 19, 2020

Diablo said:
they`d only kill those like themselves stupid enough not to be vaccinated !!

And if the hermit is the only one not vaccinated, then they'd have no one to catch it off anyway.

That is why 100% vaccination is not needed.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Apr 19, 2020

sparkie said:
And if the hermit is the only one not vaccinated, then they'd have no one to catch it off anyway.

That is why 100% vaccination is not needed.

That is exactly the same reason why 100% vaccination against measels mumps and rubella isn't 'needed'.

When 100% vaccination isn't needed then people can choose to not be vaccinated.

Then some dick starts saying the vaccine causes autism or some such absurdity.

Then the chavs, fruitcakes and thickies stop vaccinating.

Then people die.

That's how 'optional' works. :shrug:

Swansman · Apr 19, 2020

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Back to the OP's question, we finally have a virus that, unless you are a hermit who shops online only, all deliveries dropped from a great height, and payment online, I would suggest it makes it 'attempted manslaughter' or even attempted murder if you don't vaccinate.

You guys who are not only in the pro-vaccin corner (which is understandable) but have a religious conviction of how unproblematic it is have been screaming "murderer!!!" to us sceptics every time there is a new vaccine around, so its really not "finally". Its "YOU ARE GONNA KILL US ALL" for the twentyeleventh time or so...

Harry Wilson's tackle · Apr 19, 2020

Swansman said:
You guys who are not only in the pro-vaccin corner (which is understandable) but have a religious conviction of how unproblematic it is have been screaming "murderer!!!" to us sceptics every time there is a new vaccine around, so its really not "finally". Its "YOU ARE GONNA KILL US ALL" for the twentyeleventh time or so...

'us skeptics'? What are you skeptical about when it comes to vaccination?

I have many convictions, but none of them are religious.

Swansman · Apr 19, 2020

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
'us skeptics'? What are you skeptical about when it comes to vaccination?

I have many convictions, but none of them are religious.

I'm skeptical about how perfectly safe they are. New discoveries about the functioning of the body and how it responds to different things are made all the time, the often heard fundamentalistic belief in their complete safety is something I would compare to dogmatic religious beliefs.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Apr 19, 2020

Swansman said:
I'm skeptical about how perfectly safe they are. New discoveries about the functioning of the body and how it responds to different things are made all the time, the often heard fundamentalistic belief in their complete safety is something I would compare to dogmatic religious beliefs.

Come on. Nothing can be guaranteed to be 'completely safe'. Even my sitting at my table and typing this.......

But I'll tell you one thing. Vaccines don't cause autism. If that disgrace Andrew Wakefield (and he should be in jail for manslaughter) is your basis for skepticism you need to give your head a wobble.

Whether to use an intervention is based on risk/benefit assessment. We use vaccines because the benefits outweigh the risks (and the risks are minute in this case). Risk is based around the statistical chance of bad things happening if you do or don't take the medicine. There is nothing magical or mysterious about this. It is based on numbers, and the numbers are determined by thorought and detailed research.

The risk with any new vaccine for COVA is that it may not hit all the current strains (if there are multiple strains as there are for the common cold, a rhinovirus not a coronarvirus but the issues are similar) and not work. The risk isn't that it may give you autism or make your willy shrink :shrug:

Swansman · Apr 19, 2020

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Come on. Nothing can be guaranteed to be 'completely safe'. Even my sitting at my table and typing this.......

But I'll tell you one thing. Vaccines don't cause autism. If that disgrace Andrew Wakefield (and he should be in jail for manslaughter) is your basis for skepticism you need to give your head a wobble.

Whether to use an intervention is based on risk/benefit assessment. We use vaccines because the benefits outweigh the risks (and the risks are minute in this case). Risk is based around the statistical chance of bad things happening if you do or don't take the medicine. There is nothing magical or mysterious about this. It is based on numbers, and the numbers are determined by thorought and detailed research.

The risk with any new vaccine for COVA is that it may not hit all the current strains (if there are multiple strains as there are for the common cold, a rhinovirus not a coronarvirus but the issues are similar) and not work. The risk isn't that it may give you autism or make your willy shrink

It could potentially cause autism. I dont know. Neither do you and likely no one else either, and you wont be able to convince me. But if you have a link or two of major studies that proves that no vaccines have any impact on the gut microbiome, at least I would move a percentage or two in your direction.

But the autism thing has never been my major concern with vaccines, my issue with it is that it would be the perfect biological weapon. If you want to kill off obscene numbers of people, a mandatory global "vaccine" would be very useful. And no, the "science/media/my friend who is a science journalist would NEVER fall for corruption".. sorry, never bought it.

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Mandatory vaccination?

If we find a safe, working vaccine should it’s application to the public be mandatory?

YES - of course you idiot, it’s the way out of this mess

NO - you dildo, the government shouldn’t have such a level of power

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