Older People Being 'Airbrushed' Out Of Virus Figures

Tom Hark Preston Park · Apr 14, 2020

This is the vile by-product of 'herd immunity' that we're told is no longer hmgov policy. Most vulnerable members of our society - and those absolute heroes who look after them - still being treated pretty much as an afterthought tho eh?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52275823

Harry Wilson's tackle · Apr 14, 2020

Indeed. Shocking stories on R5 earlier today.

beorhthelm · Apr 14, 2020

seems the media want to make a story out of stats. the elderly arent being airbrushed out, the non-hospital data comes out about 10 days later. its there on the ONS site that the article refers to. unless we have some changes to how deaths are registered, processed, im not sure they can make this a daily number accuratly, even the hospital data is updated.

buried half way down is the actual story about how well people are being cared for in home in current circumstances. i dont know why that isnt the headline.

Tom Hark Preston Park · Apr 14, 2020

beorhthelm said:
seems the media swant to make a story out of stats. the elderly arent being airbrushed out, the non-hospital data comes out about 10 days later. its there on the ONS site that the article refers to. unless we have some changes to how deaths are registered, processed, im not sure they can make this a daily number accuratly, even the hospital data is updated.

Chief Medical Officer clearly had the figures at his fingertips in yesterday's briefing, and looked clearly uncomfortable at having being boxed in to the point where he had to publicly declare them

LamieRobertson · Apr 14, 2020

beorhthelm said:
seems the media want to make a story out of stats. the elderly arent being airbrushed out, the non-hospital data comes out about 10 days later. its there on the ONS site that the article refers to. unless we have some changes to how deaths are registered, processed, im not sure they can make this a daily number accuratly, even the hospital data is updated.

buried half way down is the actual story about how well people are being cared for in home in current circumstances. i dont know why that isnt the headline.

Doesn’t make quite such a good headline

Raleigh Chopper · Apr 14, 2020

beorhthelm said:
seems the media want to make a story out of stats. the elderly arent being airbrushed out, the non-hospital data comes out about 10 days later. its there on the ONS site that the article refers to. unless we have some changes to how deaths are registered, processed, im not sure they can make this a daily number accuratly, even the hospital data is updated.

buried half way down is the actual story about how well people are being cared for in home in current circumstances. i dont know why that isnt the headline.

But that is a 2 part reply.
The question was about being airbrushed out not care.
I think you are right, I cannot see how old folks homes and care homes can report the deaths as hospitals do, so the numbers will be behind.
But there is no question about care, if you watched GMB this morning you would have seen the situation from 3 different guests, it's appalling, but the carers are doing a fabulous job dressed in bin liners.
Morgan had a minister tied up in knots and her replies were shocking.
My mum and dad are in total lockdown, extremely vulnerable due to age and ill health, but are getting a visit 3 times a day from social services and they are doing more than they should be.
But they are doing it in home made PPE or anything they can get their hands on.

vegster · Apr 14, 2020

I take my hat off to the dedication of the care home workers carrying on in such difficult circumstances. I read yesterday of a care home where a group of staff had brought in suitcases of clothes so that if they did get a case of Covid-19 they would go in to lockdown and sleep in the care home, and stay with the patients, rather than risk taking the virus home.

Thunder Bolt · Apr 14, 2020

beorhthelm said:
seems the media want to make a story out of stats. the elderly arent being airbrushed out, the non-hospital data comes out about 10 days later. its there on the ONS site that the article refers to. unless we have some changes to how deaths are registered, processed, im not sure they can make this a daily number accuratly, even the hospital data is updated.

buried half way down is the actual story about how well people are being cared for in home in current circumstances. i dont know why that isnt the headline.

Unless the deaths in the care home are tested then the death certificate can say pneumonia. There are several causes of pneumonia, bacterial, secondary and viral.
There aren't enough test kits, or even accurate test kits, so therefore pneumonia is a coverall.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Apr 14, 2020

vegster said:
I take my hat off to the dedication of the care home workers carrying on in such difficult circumstances. I read yesterday of a care home where a group of staff had brought in suitcases of clothes so that if they did get a case of Covid-19 they would go in to lockdown and sleep in the care home, and stay with the patients, rather than risk taking the virus home.

Yes. And on minimum wage.

I think the OP's 'airbrush' comment resonated not simply because of the effect on total mortality count but because these people have been put at avoidable risk. People (like my mum's cousin, who died last year) in care homes are not going out and mixing and in theory should be 100% safe. Insted they are being infected by the carers who tend to them, carers who are unware they are infective.

All this could have been anticipated months ago and the necessary steps put into place for screening of workers and stepping up hygeine procedures. The fact this didn't happen may turn out to be a big scandal.

Let's not forget, folk in care homes are old and vulnerable and at higher risk of death if they get ill. This is why their deaths can be viewed as being 'airbrushed'. As others have posted on NSC, once they get ill you can't visit them, and old vulnerable people are dying without their family and loved ones being able to see them and, in effect, say goodbye.

All this has happened while the government was focused on the best way to allow 'herd immunity' to propagate - this before they had any clue about the true mortality rate, which appears to be anywhere between 1 in 8 (current UK figures) and 0 (yes, zero - in that Faroe Islands).

RossyG · Apr 14, 2020

I think this story encapsulated just how badly the media have covered this issue. It’s all about scare stories, click bait, exaggerated outrage, and gotcha questioning.

And they’ve turned herd immunity, which is a bloody good thing to have, into a dirty word.

Thunder Bolt · Apr 14, 2020

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
As others have posted on NSC, once they get ill you can't visit them, and old vulnerable people are dying without their family and loved ones being able to see them and, in effect, say goodbye.

All this has happened while the government was focused on the best way to allow 'herd immunity' to propagate - this before they had any clue about the true mortality rate, which appears to be anywhere between 1 in 8 (current UK figures) and 0 (yes, zero - in that Faroe Islands).

The two care homes that my family and inlaws are involved with went into lockdown many weeks ago before Mothers Day, so any disease transmission is done by carers, some of whom are going from home to home.

Tom Hark Preston Park · Apr 14, 2020

RossyG said:
I think this story encapsulated just how badly the media have covered this issue. It’s all about scare stories, click bait, exaggerated outrage, and gotcha questioning.

And they’ve turned herd immunity, which is a bloody good thing to have, into a dirty word.

One man's 'good thing' sails pretty close to being another man's 'near genocide' tho eh?

Lest we forget, herd immunity = allowing hundreds of thousands of people die while utterly swamping all available NHS resources. To be honest, as 'good things' go, I've heard better :shrug:

vegster · Apr 14, 2020

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Yes. And on minimum wage.

I think the OP's 'airbrush' comment resonated not simply because of the effect on total mortality count but because these people have been put at avoidable risk. People (like my mum's cousin, who died last year) in care homes are not going out and mixing and in theory should be 100% safe. Insted they are being infected by the carers who tend to them, carers who are unware they are infective.

All this could have been anticipated months ago and the necessary steps put into place for screening of workers and stepping up hygeine procedures. The fact this didn't happen may turn out to be a big scandal.

Let's not forget, folk in care homes are old and vulnerable and at higher risk of death if they get ill. This is why their deaths can be viewed as being 'airbrushed'. As others have posted on NSC, once they get ill you can't visit them, and old vulnerable people are dying without their family and loved ones being able to see them and, in effect, say goodbye.

All this has happened while the government was focused on the best way to allow 'herd immunity' to propagate - this before they had any clue about the true mortality rate, which appears to be anywhere between 1 in 8 (current UK figures) and 0 (yes, zero - in that Faroe Islands).

Indeed this is so true, some of the stories coming out recently are awful, people having to wave goodbye to elderly parents through windows as a final goodbye. Additionally most are classed as DNR's which is a further burden for the carers and family.
A few years back my elderly mum had a stroke which caused her to lose her ability to swallow and her ability to speak, after a brief recovery of other functions, this remained and I was told that after 2 weeks of care and physio and medication that there was nothing further they could do. She could not drink or eat so we had to watch her fade away.

I was able to get to see her in hospital daily, sometimes twice a day but there was nothing I could do. It took a little over two weeks for her to pass away. The staff did what they could to make her comfortable and I and the family managed to say our goodbyes to her so that she knew she was loved. This is what is happening in scores or probably hundreds of cases at the moment, and behind closed doors and with no family to comfort them. Terrible times.

RossyG · Apr 14, 2020

Tom Hark said:
One man's 'good thing' sails pretty close to another man's 'near genocide' tho eh?

Lest we forget, herd immunity = allowing hundreds of thousands of people did while utterly swamping alm available NHS resources. To be honest, as 'good things' go, I've heard better :shrhg:

Herd immunity in itself means that we are immune either completely or to the point that it’s not too serious. That’d be a good thing.

You know how a common cold is a mere inconvenience to us yet could wipe out a remote village of eskimos? That’s because we have herd immunity and they don’t.

The fact that you liken it to genocide shows you how poorly the media have covered this (and hysteria on social media has been even worse).

Tom Hark Preston Park · Apr 14, 2020

RossyG said:
Herd immunity in itself means that we are immune either completely or to the point that it’s not too serious. That’d be a good thing.

You know how a common cold is a mere inconvenience to us yet could wipe out a remote village of eskimos? That’s because we have herd immunity and they don’t.

The fact that you liked it to genocide shows you how poorly the media have covered this (and hysteria on social media has been even worse).[

So you're not that fussed about allowing hundreds of thousands of vulnerable real people to die on the altar of a purely hypothetical computer model then? Fair enough :shrug:

RossyG · Apr 14, 2020

Tom Hark said:
So you're not that fussed about allowing hundreds of thousands of vulnerable real people to die on the altar of a purely hypothetical computer model then? Fair enough

Do you think having herd immunity to various diseases is a bad thing?

Tom Hark Preston Park · Apr 14, 2020

RossyG said:
Do you think having herd immunity to various diseases is a bad thing?

More to the point, you appear to be of the opinion that having herd immunity to this particular disease is a good thing, and damn the collateral damage of hundreds of thousands of vulnerable people. Rather live in MY world cheers, where that level of collateral damage is considered to be a very bad thing indeed

Rugrat · Apr 14, 2020

RossyG said:
Do you think having herd immunity to various diseases is a bad thing?

Maybe not but the price to pay certainly is.

I'm horrified that anyone would think it's in any way, shape or form reasonable

Thunder Bolt · Apr 14, 2020

RossyG said:
Herd immunity in itself means that we are immune either completely or to the point that it’s not too serious. That’d be a good thing.

You know how a common cold is a mere inconvenience to us yet could wipe out a remote village of eskimos? That’s because we have herd immunity and they don’t.

The fact that you liken it to genocide shows you how poorly the media have covered this (and hysteria on social media has been even worse).

Genocide is probably the wrong word. Try euthanasia.

RossyG · Apr 14, 2020

Tom Hark said:
More to the point, you appear to be of the opinion that having herd immunity to this particular disease is a good thing, and damn the collateral damage of hundreds of thousands of vulnerable people. Rather live in MY world cheers, where that level of collateral damage is considered to be a very bad thing indeed

Yes, herd immunity to this disease would be a good thing. Herd Immunity would mean it didn’t kill us.

You're equating herd I’m unity with the projected deaths of this disease if it was allowed to spread naturally. That’s not herd immunity; that’s a virus killing people. It might result in herd immunity as a side effect, but that’s not what herd immunity itself is.

How to stimulate and manage herd immunity in the case of Covid 19? One way: keep the vulnerable and elderly isolated and let the under 60s carry on as normal. After a month or two you’d have the necessary 60% plus of people with antibodies.

Those under sixty are more likely to die of a car accident that Covid 19 but there will still be a few hundred, maybe thousand deaths. This disease will kill whatever we do.

We may or may not get a vaccine for this disease. If we do, we can vaccinate the majority of people and this will create... wait for it... HERD IMMUNITY.

Herd immunity means people being immune en masse from diseases. This is unquestionably a good thing. But the media and social media made people think that herd immunity was about killing off hundreds of thousands of weak people. This is not what it means.

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Older People Being 'Airbrushed' Out Of Virus Figures

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