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[Travel] Air travel and safety.





Guinness Boy

Tofu eating wokerati
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Jul 23, 2003
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Up and Coming Sunny Portslade






PILTDOWN MAN

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Sep 15, 2004
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https://info.caa.co.uk/brexit/

The CAA have always issued the C of A for this country, the difference now is they will not be under the umbrella EASA.

As we are held in the highest esteem worldwide for our aviation safety I would suggest it will not be an issue. Having held CAA JAA and FAA (extension) Engineering Licences I can confirm the CAA have always been the best authority in this regard.
 




peterward

Well-known member
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Nov 11, 2009
11,233
https://info.caa.co.uk/brexit/

The CAA have always issued the C of A for this country, the difference now is they will not be under the umbrella EASA.

As we are held in the highest esteem worldwide for our aviation safety I would suggest it will not be an issue. Having held CAA JAA and FAA (extension) Engineering Licences I can confirm the CAA have always been the best authority in this regard.

Regulations are in the main from ICAO anyway, so not to much difference.

It will limit Engineers ability though to say take a contract with DHL in Leipzig, who will require EASA licence. maybe they'll offer a dispensation? Could be quite a big deal if moving away from EASA curbs 5th freedom rights?

Whilst I agree with you, the UK safety record is outstanding, not sure I entirely share your sentiment about the CAA, bit wooden, antiquated. The IAA were far more pragmatic. But if that's the decision, cest la vie. New passport, new licence.
 




Mellotron

I've asked for soup
Jul 2, 2008
31,730
Brighton
Guys can we please stop blaming Brexit for issues caused entirely by Brexit?

K, thanks.
 




mashman156

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2009
511
Southampton
EASA is what it is and as has been said the UK record on safety through SARG at the CAA is exemplary. My concern with the relationship with the EU post Brexit in terms of aviation would be whether we can be involved in the SESAR programme and whether the NATs plan for "file it fly it" is compatible with uk airspace not being part of this venture.
 


mashman156

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2009
511
Southampton
Regulations are in the main from ICAO anyway, so not to much difference.

It will limit Engineers ability though to say take a contract with DHL in Leipzig, who will require EASA licence. maybe they'll offer a dispensation? Could be quite a big deal if moving away from EASA curbs 5th freedom rights?

Whilst I agree with you, the UK safety record is outstanding, not sure I entirely share your sentiment about the CAA, bit wooden, antiquated. The IAA were far more pragmatic. But if that's the decision, cest la vie. New passport, new licence.

I don't entirely agree that regulations are in the main from ICAO. The CAP493 (Mats Part 1) by which Air Traffic Control is regulated in the UK, differs in many significant ways from ICAO. Indeed controllers going through training are taught the ICAO regulations as part of the Basic Course and then retrained on UK procedures as part of the Aerodrome and Approach rating courses

Ultimately the CAA has shown it can be flexible in its interpretation of ICAO aviation law to fit its need while maintaining a safety priority and this will not be impacted by leaving the EU. Being a separate Public Corporation from government, there shouldn't be a political undertone here.
 
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peterward

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Nov 11, 2009
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I don't entirely agree that regulations are in the main from ICAO. The CAP493 (Mats Part 1) by which Air Traffic Control is regulated in the UK, differs in many significant ways from ICAO. Indeed controllers going through training are taught the ICAO regulations as part of the Basic Course and then retrained on UK procedures as part of the Aerodrome and Approach rating courses

I wasn't refering to ATC of which reasonsble variations occur across Europe. I worked on a CAP413 doc a while ago with ATC colleagues for my employer, and the differences across Europe are many!

For safety regs, It is ICAO that generally promulgates SARPS, which in turn are then implemented by EASA for which national AA's must regulate to mirror EASA or be more restrictive if required. EASA then policing national AA compliance through audit.

It will just mean the UK taking SARPS directly from ICAO.
 




PILTDOWN MAN

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Regulations are in the main from ICAO anyway, so not to much difference.

It will limit Engineers ability though to say take a contract with DHL in Leipzig, who will require EASA licence. maybe they'll offer a dispensation? Could be quite a big deal if moving away from EASA curbs 5th freedom rights?

Whilst I agree with you, the UK safety record is outstanding, not sure I entirely share your sentiment about the CAA, bit wooden, antiquated. The IAA were far more pragmatic. But if that's the decision, cest la vie. New passport, new licence.

i'm sure the dispensation will be forthcoming. I'm well out of it these days but back in my day most international regulations adopted by other countries fell between us and America. Working under the FAA regulations was eye opening. Basically as long as you signed, counter-signed and signed the counter signature, they didn't gave jackshit about the state of the aircraft, which in my experience were in an awful condition. In fact we grounded them regularly.

Back then under the CAA we were not allowed to sign off (final inspection) of our own work. The FAA you could, against most of our better judgement this was also adopted later under JAR145 by the CAA.

It was believed though we over engineered our aircraft and as technology advanced the extent of servicing was reduced as less things needed inspecting and changed. I cut my teeth on BAC 1-11's, shimming up flap tracks and alike. Each bearing needing to be greased. Good old proper engineering. Nothing like that now.
 


mashman156

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2009
511
Southampton
I wasn't refering to ATC of which reasonsble variations occur across Europe. I worked on a CAP413 doc a while ago with ATC colleagues for my employer, and the differences across Europe are many!

For safety regs, It is ICAO that generally promulgates SARPS, which in turn are then implemented by EASA for which national AA's must regulate to mirror EASA or be more restrictive if required. EASA then policing national AA compliance through audit.

It will just mean the UK taking SARPS directly from ICAO.

Wow, it's been a long time since I learnt about SARPs, ICAO annexes and supplements etc.

Does EASA currently have the power to audit AA's under the agreement, I was under the impression that ICAO follow the USOAP with individual authorities.
 


peterward

Well-known member
NSC Patreon
Nov 11, 2009
11,233
i'm sure the dispensation will be forthcoming. I'm well out of it these days but back in my day most international regulations adopted by other countries fell between us and America. Working under the FAA regulations was eye opening. Basically as long as you signed, counter-signed and signed the counter signature, they didn't gave jackshit about the state of the aircraft, which in my experience were in an awful condition. In fact we grounded them regularly.

Back then under the CAA we were not allowed to sign off (final inspection) of our own work. The FAA you could, against most of our better judgement this was also adopted later under JAR145 by the CAA.

It was believed though we over engineered our aircraft and as technology advanced the extent of servicing was reduced as less things needed inspecting and changed. I cut my teeth on BAC 1-11's, shimming up flap tracks and alike. Each bearing needing to be greased. Good old proper engineering. Nothing like that now.

Nothing quite like the sound of the 1-11 BS75's...... I trust, unlike BA, you put the front windshield bolts in correctly. No flight deck hanging out the window!
 




peterward

Well-known member
NSC Patreon
Nov 11, 2009
11,233
Wow, it's been a long time since I learnt about SARPs, ICAO annexes and supplements etc.

Does EASA currently have the power to audit AA's under the agreement, I was under the impression that ICAO follow the USOAP with individual authorities.

When it comes to audit/compliance monitoring you are absolutely right ICAO do follow USOAP with individual states and I guess thatd what will most certainly be the case after we leave EASA as it is with many individual national AA's.

EASA being the umbrella body that sits in-between ICAO and national AA's in the EU.

I guess and this purely a guess to answer your Q, that ICAO would probably have the power to turn up to an EU AA and do a compliance audit directly? But they are done in the main by EASA, who audit for themselves, and ate also trained to act as direct reps of ICAO where required.

https://www.easa.europa.eu/easa-and-you/international-cooperation/cooperation-with-ICAO
 


PILTDOWN MAN

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Sep 15, 2004
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Nothing quite like the sound of the 1-11 BS75's...... I trust, unlike BA, you put the front windshield bolts in correctly. No flight deck hanging out the window!

I can elaborate on that, the engineer in question was in fact the shift manager who due to strike action, had to get his tools out. While still holding his licences he was somewhat rusty. Back then the shift managers would certify the final sign off service checks but wouldn't expect every completed job, the tech's work would have been checked by supervisors then the final certification, the manager.

As I expect you know to retain their licences that had to "stamp" the paperwork to show recency on that aircraft type. This was commonly done as an exercise.

If memory serves he used 8-32 bolts not 10-32. These still tightened to torque as the retainer nuts were lock-nuts. however they worked loose.

I was working for BA at LGW at the time as a licensed engineer, having served my apprenticeship with B-Cal (superb airline).

Could tell you plenty of stories from back then, some funny some serious!!
 




Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patreon
Jul 11, 2003
59,199
The Fatherland
Very worrying, I’ll make sure I pack a parachute if I’m travelling on a U.K. carrier.
 


happypig

Staring at the rude boys
May 23, 2009
7,935
Eastbourne
Far too many experts on this thread. We need some retired plasterers and cabbies telling us "YOU LOST GET OVER IT"
 



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