And the Mirror. I add that spiteful rag, so that thread is not party politicised.
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[Misc] Caroline Flack
- Thread starter lawros left foot
- Start date
And the Mirror. I add that spiteful rag, so that thread is not party politicised.
dingodan
New member
- Feb 16, 2011
- 10,080
You've just implied quite strongly here that the victim of domestic abuse in this case was infact the abuser, and the abuser was infact the victim.
Would you have written the same post if genders were the other way around?
He was attacked, she was arrested, she was charged, but she's the victim and he's the perpetrator?
I feel sorry that she felt the only way out was to take her own life. But she is responsible for her actions, and the fact that she chose to end her life, as tragic as that is, doesn't change that fact.
It's a very sad story, she clearly had problems and probably needed help. But the truth is that every man who gets drunk and beats his wife likely has problems and probably needs help to. But they still have to face the consequences of what they have done.
nicko31
Well-known member
True and the Express, still Leverson 2 has never happened, we know why...
Norman Potting
Well-known member
Without wishing to trivialise matters I find that firing up a "Classic Soul" playlist and turning the volume up does the spirit lifting for me.
Very well said.
I was taught this by a younger colleague at work about 15 years ago, who had suffered from periodic bouts of depression. She said finding something daily to look forward to, had really helped her.
So helpful to find your thing. For me it’s Frank Skinner podcasts, Bob Mortimer stuff. Just lighthearted, funny stuff to lift the spirits. Does wonders.
Many true words spoken in message below ... is transcript of video message posted today in tribute by Danny Cipriani
Danny Cipriani's raw message on Caroline Flack
I have to tell this story.
I've rehearsed this so much in my mind.
Someone that I loved as a person really dearly and someone I was very close to has decided to take her own life as everyone knows.
I've been speaking to her for the past three or four months and we've always been in contact since we were together, since we weren't.
It's always been a loving friendship.
I was so vulnerable with her when in my moments when we first me and I told her everything about me, because I felt safe with her.
I told her all the things I was embarrassed and shameful about.
She made me feel ok.
And ultimately it was embarrassment and shame that killed her.
So I'm telling everyone now what my most embarrassing and shameful moments are, because I know that she knew I had the strength to do this.
We talked about change.
I didn't know it was going to take this.
I'm going to go straight into it.
When I was 22 I was going through severe depression and I was seeing a psychiatrist.
I had to keep turning up and keep playing like I had been taught by my mum and I love her for that.
That's how you get over things.
That's one part of it.
But Saturday night at 9pm when I was 22 I got a phonecall from my agent saying 'The Sun were going to print a story about you trying to buy a gun'.
I'll tell you the story now about why this was happening.
I had a friend who owned a nightclub in London and he's looked after me my whole life, he's always been that guy who sent me out the back door. and looked after me.
Now, that might sound shady, and it might be shady.
But at the end of the day I was a kid who wanted go out and party. I still wanted to play and I didn't even drink alcohol, but anyway.
That's besides the point.
She knew everything about me, so that's why I'm telling you.
This isn't going to be perfect. Whatever.
I met a guy who was at a nightclub, my friend's night club, he ended up being around. I knew he was a bad man, was in the scene, trying to make his way in whatever he was doing. I decided at this point it was time for me to take my own life and I tried to buy a gun from him. And I pulled out.
Then I tried to buy it again, but I pulled out. This went on for two months.
I couldn't do it. Because I had some fight in me.
So then he sold all the messages to the newspaper - to The Sun - so The Sun knew everything.
So they phoned my agent and they told [the agent] what was happening.
My psychiatrist had to get involved and speak and show the minutes, not the specifics, but how long I'd been seeing him for - which was nine months.
And they weren't legally allowed to print it.
But that was the start.
That was something that I went through and I have had to carry that.
She knew everything about me.
And that's why I'm doing this because embarrassment and shame is not something that should make you do this.
It's how we treat people, because everyone has embarrassment and shame in some sort of degree.
Whatever it is, we be kind, we try to be gentle. If someone is doing something wrong we give them a clip around the ear saying 'come on', whatever it is.
But we do not need maliciousness. We do not need people going through your bins. We do not need people sitting outside trying to gather information.
But at the end of the day, we've created what the media is.
If there's a good and a bad story, the bad sells more.
If the bad sells more, as a business they're going to keep doing the bad.
If we make a change on social media, which we have the opportunity to do, we can be kind and we can not read that and we can do things, change perceptions - everything.
So what I'm trying to say is, we can't just blame the media, we can't just blame ourselves - it's what has been created. It's what is happening. We can move forward.
Her life will not go in vain and this is why I have to tell this story.
There are so many things that have happened and through the ages...I was the happiest, youngest kid until I was 20.
And I'm sharing my experience because these are things I have spoken to her about.
Which I'd hoped had given her some light.
But ultimately, it wasn't enough.
I'm not saying it was my fault in terms of not giving her information, because I tried.
Some people don't have the fight in them or don't have the fight for 20 years. She was dealing with this for 20 years.
I've done 12 and this is me broken.
And I'm not doing what she decided to do because I'm doing this for her.
So you need to understand that - whoever listens and reads this - whatever.
I'm trying to say it's ok to be vulnerable. I'm trying to say it doesn't matter what people say about you.
I've worried my whole life about what people say about me. I don't care any more. It's their opinion. It's their projection. It's their thing.
I've known who I am from a young age, because I've been in pain. When I was young, my dad left me at 10 and my mum worked so hard for me to get a life that I should never have had.
That was how she had to do it, she couldn't always be about, she had to go and work.
So I brought myself up and didn't get the love and affection that I wanted so I've caused myself pain through meaningless sex or painkillers or driking alcohol, which I hated and never did uyntil I was 21.
I'm saying these things out loud because it's ok to be vulnerable.
You can take it any way you choose, and that is also ok.
But be kind. Not to me, I don't need that. I'm strong enough. You don't know people have done and the people I've met.
I've hated the fact for my whole life that my dad left me when I was 10.
I was young, I'm white, my dad's black. It's so mixed. It's so all over. It's always 'you're not white enough' or 'you're not black enough', so it's always been different.
And I've always hated it.
But I haven't looked at the love and the opportunity I've had, and I see it clearly now in terms of what my purpose is.
My dad may have left, but I wouldn't never have met Brian Ashton, Shaun Edwards, Kevin Lindlow, Steve Black, Laird Hamilton, Debbie Rees, Margot Wells - I would never have met these people - I'm sorry if I've missed any names.
Something bad happened, something great happened - you need to see the meaning and the beauty within whatever.
And there is nothing beautiful within what happened.
The ritual is, I sit at home crying.
And the ritual is, I have a lot of guilt.
And the ritual is, at the moment, is I have a lot of anger.
But if I hang on to that, it will break me.
So I have to see the meaning in why she decided to call me in her last moments when she was with her two best friends.
How much love and trust did she have for me because we had been vulnerable and shared together.
It was a safe space. And I thank her for that, because I felt safe with her.
But we need to change. We need to be able to be vulnerable. It doesn't matter what scale it is.
It doesn't matter if you tripped over and people are looking at you - it's fine.
Tell me one person who hasn't tripped over.
But we try to criminalise and get into people.
I'm not trying to have a go at the media here.
I'm trying to go at every single human being - it's not them and us, it's everybody.
It's not just the CPS and us, it's everybody.
I understand the CPS wanted to make an example of her, it is not their fault, it is the society we've created.
She didn't deserve to be made an example of.
Once again, it's something I've spoken to her about. Yes, I've made mistakes, but I've also been made an example of.
There is no excuse for my mishaps, my drink-drive, whatever, but I was made an example of by how grand and great they made it.
That is what they were doing.
I could handle it.
She text me on Friday and said she had to plead guilty, and I had a game.
I had a game of rugby.
Which, again, is another story. It's another distraction. Until we understand that love and healing and coming together is what we need to do.
And I'm not trying to preach to anybody.
I'm no better than the next man. I've been born into a life and I'm a bit more fortunate.
I'm very fortunate because I don't look bad, I've got talent, I get that.
But I've been told my whole life that's wrong.
I'm admitting that, but I've also been through a lot of pain.
And I'm strong enough to share my moments of vulnerability now.
I'm asking that we're kind. I'm asking that if you have vulnerable moments nad people you care about - share it with them.
They won't criminalise or vindict or get angry with you.
They will love you more for it, I promise you.
I told my teammates on Monday my story, and I had teammates that I didn't even think like me text me over the weekend the most beautiful messages.
It's the first time I've felt love like that from a lot of people.
But why does it take someone to die for this to be the case?
This is not me, again, this is not my thing. This is my story. I'm sharing. And you can take it any way you want.
But I have to...I'm talking to a camera and I can't even look into it.
The light's gone. It's not perfect. Whatever.
I see clearly now, and I hate the fact that it's taken someone so kind and so beautiful and had just as many faults as me and you, but never malicious.
She was kind, she was loving.
If I showed you the voice notes she sent me when she was broken, she'd move on and she'd spend the last 20 seconds asking how I am.
And how's rugby, and how's this...and what I'm trying to say is, we all have vulnerable moments and moments of weakness.
Talk.
I've heard that said before 100 times, but I truly understand it now.
I'm going to finish on a story because about five our six years ago, three women were assaulted on Richmond Green.
And for three months, you didn't see a woman walking around RG on her own.
But after three months it kind of got back to normal and women were walking on their own.
So what I'm trying to say is - we're going to get a reaction, we're going to get messages, she's going to get messages she should've had when she was alive.
People should've feel bad for this because this is society right now and she never understood it.
I'm explaining it from my point of view, and hers, and what we talked about.
But if I go back to the story - we're going to have a period of people being kind, but it takes consistency in everything in life.
If you want to be great at something, you have to be consistent about it.
You've got to train hard, work hard, do what you have to do.
To be kind you have to be consistent. There will be times in life when you want to be angry and that is fine to feel those emotions, but don't project, don't put it on...
Talk. Figure it out. Speak. Because that's what I'm going to do. That's what I'm going to do.
I went to training on Monday. I'm playing Saturday. And I've been told to do that from my mum.
When s--t goes wrong you stand up.
And it's ok to feel sadness. That's what I'm telling you. I'm not going to do it at home and then I eat it and then I wear it and I feel it.
I have to release this for me. This is for me. This is for her. This is for young people who post pictures and get horrible comments, whatever they might go through.
Because they might not be strong enough to deal with it.
Just be consistent.
If you want to be great - Michael Jordan goes and shoots three points - you hear it a thousand, million times.
If you want to be an actor you rehearse.
If you want to be a businessman you learn, you study.
If you want to be a good human being, you constantly have to do it.
I haven't in my life because I've let pain and anger get the better of me.
I've numbed myself over and over again. I'm not letting that happen any more.
I had to say this, and I miss her.
I've written her messages that she's never going to read because her phone's not on.
Well, it is. But she's not here.
But I've had to voice things to her.
And I'm going to play the messages at some point about 15 days ago - because people need to hear it.
But right now this is me.
You can make jokes, I don't care. This isn't going to affect me.
She's given me that.
Because she's given me that I'm sharing it with you. I'm sharing it and it's for me.
I just want to thank everyone who's been kind to her, to me, to her boyfriend, to her family.
Continue being kind. Don't make it take an artist to die before you buy their painting. If it's great - buy it.
Consistency. It's not easy sometimes to get out of bed. That's what my mum taught me - you've got to get up and you've got to do it.
I've been knocked back playing a game and it felt like the hardest thing in the world to get up and try and play well.
But every time I've played better, a game.
This is life.
I haven't cried in 20 years because I've bottled up everything. And I haven't stopped.
I'm done. I'm done. That's it. I'm finished.
Danny Cipriani's raw message on Caroline Flack
I have to tell this story.
I've rehearsed this so much in my mind.
Someone that I loved as a person really dearly and someone I was very close to has decided to take her own life as everyone knows.
I've been speaking to her for the past three or four months and we've always been in contact since we were together, since we weren't.
It's always been a loving friendship.
I was so vulnerable with her when in my moments when we first me and I told her everything about me, because I felt safe with her.
I told her all the things I was embarrassed and shameful about.
She made me feel ok.
And ultimately it was embarrassment and shame that killed her.
So I'm telling everyone now what my most embarrassing and shameful moments are, because I know that she knew I had the strength to do this.
We talked about change.
I didn't know it was going to take this.
I'm going to go straight into it.
When I was 22 I was going through severe depression and I was seeing a psychiatrist.
I had to keep turning up and keep playing like I had been taught by my mum and I love her for that.
That's how you get over things.
That's one part of it.
But Saturday night at 9pm when I was 22 I got a phonecall from my agent saying 'The Sun were going to print a story about you trying to buy a gun'.
I'll tell you the story now about why this was happening.
I had a friend who owned a nightclub in London and he's looked after me my whole life, he's always been that guy who sent me out the back door. and looked after me.
Now, that might sound shady, and it might be shady.
But at the end of the day I was a kid who wanted go out and party. I still wanted to play and I didn't even drink alcohol, but anyway.
That's besides the point.
She knew everything about me, so that's why I'm telling you.
This isn't going to be perfect. Whatever.
I met a guy who was at a nightclub, my friend's night club, he ended up being around. I knew he was a bad man, was in the scene, trying to make his way in whatever he was doing. I decided at this point it was time for me to take my own life and I tried to buy a gun from him. And I pulled out.
Then I tried to buy it again, but I pulled out. This went on for two months.
I couldn't do it. Because I had some fight in me.
So then he sold all the messages to the newspaper - to The Sun - so The Sun knew everything.
So they phoned my agent and they told [the agent] what was happening.
My psychiatrist had to get involved and speak and show the minutes, not the specifics, but how long I'd been seeing him for - which was nine months.
And they weren't legally allowed to print it.
But that was the start.
That was something that I went through and I have had to carry that.
She knew everything about me.
And that's why I'm doing this because embarrassment and shame is not something that should make you do this.
It's how we treat people, because everyone has embarrassment and shame in some sort of degree.
Whatever it is, we be kind, we try to be gentle. If someone is doing something wrong we give them a clip around the ear saying 'come on', whatever it is.
But we do not need maliciousness. We do not need people going through your bins. We do not need people sitting outside trying to gather information.
But at the end of the day, we've created what the media is.
If there's a good and a bad story, the bad sells more.
If the bad sells more, as a business they're going to keep doing the bad.
If we make a change on social media, which we have the opportunity to do, we can be kind and we can not read that and we can do things, change perceptions - everything.
So what I'm trying to say is, we can't just blame the media, we can't just blame ourselves - it's what has been created. It's what is happening. We can move forward.
Her life will not go in vain and this is why I have to tell this story.
There are so many things that have happened and through the ages...I was the happiest, youngest kid until I was 20.
And I'm sharing my experience because these are things I have spoken to her about.
Which I'd hoped had given her some light.
But ultimately, it wasn't enough.
I'm not saying it was my fault in terms of not giving her information, because I tried.
Some people don't have the fight in them or don't have the fight for 20 years. She was dealing with this for 20 years.
I've done 12 and this is me broken.
And I'm not doing what she decided to do because I'm doing this for her.
So you need to understand that - whoever listens and reads this - whatever.
I'm trying to say it's ok to be vulnerable. I'm trying to say it doesn't matter what people say about you.
I've worried my whole life about what people say about me. I don't care any more. It's their opinion. It's their projection. It's their thing.
I've known who I am from a young age, because I've been in pain. When I was young, my dad left me at 10 and my mum worked so hard for me to get a life that I should never have had.
That was how she had to do it, she couldn't always be about, she had to go and work.
So I brought myself up and didn't get the love and affection that I wanted so I've caused myself pain through meaningless sex or painkillers or driking alcohol, which I hated and never did uyntil I was 21.
I'm saying these things out loud because it's ok to be vulnerable.
You can take it any way you choose, and that is also ok.
But be kind. Not to me, I don't need that. I'm strong enough. You don't know people have done and the people I've met.
I've hated the fact for my whole life that my dad left me when I was 10.
I was young, I'm white, my dad's black. It's so mixed. It's so all over. It's always 'you're not white enough' or 'you're not black enough', so it's always been different.
And I've always hated it.
But I haven't looked at the love and the opportunity I've had, and I see it clearly now in terms of what my purpose is.
My dad may have left, but I wouldn't never have met Brian Ashton, Shaun Edwards, Kevin Lindlow, Steve Black, Laird Hamilton, Debbie Rees, Margot Wells - I would never have met these people - I'm sorry if I've missed any names.
Something bad happened, something great happened - you need to see the meaning and the beauty within whatever.
And there is nothing beautiful within what happened.
The ritual is, I sit at home crying.
And the ritual is, I have a lot of guilt.
And the ritual is, at the moment, is I have a lot of anger.
But if I hang on to that, it will break me.
So I have to see the meaning in why she decided to call me in her last moments when she was with her two best friends.
How much love and trust did she have for me because we had been vulnerable and shared together.
It was a safe space. And I thank her for that, because I felt safe with her.
But we need to change. We need to be able to be vulnerable. It doesn't matter what scale it is.
It doesn't matter if you tripped over and people are looking at you - it's fine.
Tell me one person who hasn't tripped over.
But we try to criminalise and get into people.
I'm not trying to have a go at the media here.
I'm trying to go at every single human being - it's not them and us, it's everybody.
It's not just the CPS and us, it's everybody.
I understand the CPS wanted to make an example of her, it is not their fault, it is the society we've created.
She didn't deserve to be made an example of.
Once again, it's something I've spoken to her about. Yes, I've made mistakes, but I've also been made an example of.
There is no excuse for my mishaps, my drink-drive, whatever, but I was made an example of by how grand and great they made it.
That is what they were doing.
I could handle it.
She text me on Friday and said she had to plead guilty, and I had a game.
I had a game of rugby.
Which, again, is another story. It's another distraction. Until we understand that love and healing and coming together is what we need to do.
And I'm not trying to preach to anybody.
I'm no better than the next man. I've been born into a life and I'm a bit more fortunate.
I'm very fortunate because I don't look bad, I've got talent, I get that.
But I've been told my whole life that's wrong.
I'm admitting that, but I've also been through a lot of pain.
And I'm strong enough to share my moments of vulnerability now.
I'm asking that we're kind. I'm asking that if you have vulnerable moments nad people you care about - share it with them.
They won't criminalise or vindict or get angry with you.
They will love you more for it, I promise you.
I told my teammates on Monday my story, and I had teammates that I didn't even think like me text me over the weekend the most beautiful messages.
It's the first time I've felt love like that from a lot of people.
But why does it take someone to die for this to be the case?
This is not me, again, this is not my thing. This is my story. I'm sharing. And you can take it any way you want.
But I have to...I'm talking to a camera and I can't even look into it.
The light's gone. It's not perfect. Whatever.
I see clearly now, and I hate the fact that it's taken someone so kind and so beautiful and had just as many faults as me and you, but never malicious.
She was kind, she was loving.
If I showed you the voice notes she sent me when she was broken, she'd move on and she'd spend the last 20 seconds asking how I am.
And how's rugby, and how's this...and what I'm trying to say is, we all have vulnerable moments and moments of weakness.
Talk.
I've heard that said before 100 times, but I truly understand it now.
I'm going to finish on a story because about five our six years ago, three women were assaulted on Richmond Green.
And for three months, you didn't see a woman walking around RG on her own.
But after three months it kind of got back to normal and women were walking on their own.
So what I'm trying to say is - we're going to get a reaction, we're going to get messages, she's going to get messages she should've had when she was alive.
People should've feel bad for this because this is society right now and she never understood it.
I'm explaining it from my point of view, and hers, and what we talked about.
But if I go back to the story - we're going to have a period of people being kind, but it takes consistency in everything in life.
If you want to be great at something, you have to be consistent about it.
You've got to train hard, work hard, do what you have to do.
To be kind you have to be consistent. There will be times in life when you want to be angry and that is fine to feel those emotions, but don't project, don't put it on...
Talk. Figure it out. Speak. Because that's what I'm going to do. That's what I'm going to do.
I went to training on Monday. I'm playing Saturday. And I've been told to do that from my mum.
When s--t goes wrong you stand up.
And it's ok to feel sadness. That's what I'm telling you. I'm not going to do it at home and then I eat it and then I wear it and I feel it.
I have to release this for me. This is for me. This is for her. This is for young people who post pictures and get horrible comments, whatever they might go through.
Because they might not be strong enough to deal with it.
Just be consistent.
If you want to be great - Michael Jordan goes and shoots three points - you hear it a thousand, million times.
If you want to be an actor you rehearse.
If you want to be a businessman you learn, you study.
If you want to be a good human being, you constantly have to do it.
I haven't in my life because I've let pain and anger get the better of me.
I've numbed myself over and over again. I'm not letting that happen any more.
I had to say this, and I miss her.
I've written her messages that she's never going to read because her phone's not on.
Well, it is. But she's not here.
But I've had to voice things to her.
And I'm going to play the messages at some point about 15 days ago - because people need to hear it.
But right now this is me.
You can make jokes, I don't care. This isn't going to affect me.
She's given me that.
Because she's given me that I'm sharing it with you. I'm sharing it and it's for me.
I just want to thank everyone who's been kind to her, to me, to her boyfriend, to her family.
Continue being kind. Don't make it take an artist to die before you buy their painting. If it's great - buy it.
Consistency. It's not easy sometimes to get out of bed. That's what my mum taught me - you've got to get up and you've got to do it.
I've been knocked back playing a game and it felt like the hardest thing in the world to get up and try and play well.
But every time I've played better, a game.
This is life.
I haven't cried in 20 years because I've bottled up everything. And I haven't stopped.
I'm done. I'm done. That's it. I'm finished.
Did this guy date Charlotte Church?
herecomesaregular
We're in the pipe, 5 by 5
Not only do I like the content of what he's written, I like the ramshackle way he's written it. Nice to read something that is so obviously truthful and raw and all the better for it.
These are my feelings on it
Domestic abuse is awful but it seems to be clearer every day with the facts unfolding Caroline Flack needed help and not to be hung out to dry facing a court appearance she was not capable of dealing with, She should have been fully assessed and not left as she was and isolated
Her court appearance raised concerns. It must have been clear she was a serious suicide risk but was abandoned in her flat. She made a mistake, awaiting the facts of what actually happened, but did not deserve to die from it .Something went badly wrong here.
I did not know her obviously but her suicide has really made me so sad this week as it could happen to anyone in a dark place with no support and she was a livewire and now gone
Domestic abuse is awful but it seems to be clearer every day with the facts unfolding Caroline Flack needed help and not to be hung out to dry facing a court appearance she was not capable of dealing with, She should have been fully assessed and not left as she was and isolated
Her court appearance raised concerns. It must have been clear she was a serious suicide risk but was abandoned in her flat. She made a mistake, awaiting the facts of what actually happened, but did not deserve to die from it .Something went badly wrong here.
I did not know her obviously but her suicide has really made me so sad this week as it could happen to anyone in a dark place with no support and she was a livewire and now gone
keaton
Big heart, hot blood and balls. Big balls
- Nov 18, 2004
- 9,661
Who hung her out to dry and offered her no support though? And who should have done? She seems to have a lot of friends and family concerned now. Wth massive cuts to support and advice for victims of crime a lot of press and people complaining would be the ones complaining the most about money being spent on supporting people accused of crimes
dejavuatbtn
Well-known member
These are the best of times; these are the worst of times.
Dickens had it covered all those years ago.
Dickens had it covered all those years ago.
METALMICKY
Well-known member
- Jan 30, 2004
- 6,077
I'd put your tin hat on for daring to suggest truths like that! In what is undoubtedly a sad affair the number of new friends and Z list celebrities coming out of the woodwork to offer their support is cringe worthy. It doesn't feel genuine and just another sound bite for their own ends.