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  1. #311
    Members Bold Seagull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beorhthelm View Post
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    this is where the campaign starts to lose people. to the vast majority driving isnt anti-social, its a vital part of living, not an optional extra. whether it is or not is besides the point, it will just rile people against the causes.
    As the population grows, society will need to evolve. We cannot just accept the status quo of 1 person in a car spewing out fumes causing congestion. It's not good for anyone. It's not good for actual drivers who have no other choice, it's no good for commuters stuck in traffic, it's no good for the environment. It's not good.

    I don't disagree with your sentiment, but we're going to have to change. Whether that is wholesale investment in sustainable public transport, the way our cities work etc. but we cannot continue allowing the car to dominate. Behaviour has to change.

    Our cities in particular can increase the number of journeys made by bike or foot ten-fold. This increases productivity and healthier lifestyles. It has to be made safer though. Deaths on Oslo streets over a year after they complete much of the car-free plans - 0. Deaths on Bristol roads for the same period (cyclists and pedestrians) 12. There are too many reasons to do it, too few reasons not to.

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    • #312
      Members Chicken Run's Avatar
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      Why is it that threads like these on NSC always fall apart and end up with insults being hurled around like confetti? I’m guilty too btw before anyone points that out!
    • #313
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bold Seagull View Post
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      As the population grows, society will need to evolve. We cannot just accept the status quo of 1 person in a car spewing out fumes causing congestion. It's not good for anyone. It's not good for actual drivers who have no other choice, it's no good for commuters stuck in traffic, it's no good for the environment. It's not good.

      I don't disagree with your sentiment, but we're going to have to change. Whether that is wholesale investment in sustainable public transport, the way our cities work etc. but we cannot continue allowing the car to dominate. Behaviour has to change.

      Our cities in particular can increase the number of journeys made by bike or foot ten-fold. This increases productivity and healthier lifestyles. It has to be made safer though. Deaths on Oslo streets over a year after they complete much of the car-free plans - 0. Deaths on Bristol roads for the same period (cyclists and pedestrians) 12. There are too many reasons to do it, too few reasons not to.
      I agree, but there is a difference between cars in city centres (bad, very very bad) and cars being used as inter-city transport. Simply saying "cars are bad, m'kay" massively over-simplifies the issue. I've pointed out before that a lot of the car-free cities that Stat Brother correctly praises have very efficient Park 'n' Ride systems - Utrecht being a good example.

    • #314
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bold Seagull View Post
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      As the population grows, society will need to evolve. We cannot just accept the status quo of 1 person in a car spewing out fumes causing congestion. It's not good for anyone. It's not good for actual drivers who have no other choice, it's no good for commuters stuck in traffic, it's no good for the environment. It's not good.

      Quite. Remember that Brighton has relatively low car ownership, what would our roads be like if every household had a car? And that's before you take into account the thousands of new homes that are planned for the city.

      For some people cars are a necessity - people who work night shifts, people who work in the middle of nowhere, workers with tools, disabled etc - but the vast majority of car owners don't need their cars and certainly don't need to drive them everywhere.

      And even if you do have a car, there's a need to think when to use it. At the moment, Mrs G and I are enjoying watching Blood Pact, a Dutch crime thriller. What's noticeable about it is that just about everyone in it uses a bike: the dad, a very senior civil servant; the gangster; the mum taking her kids to school - all families have a car but they're used sporadically not for every journey. I remember seeing a stat once that pointed out that car ownership was higher in Germany than in the UK, but the UK had almost twice as many journeys made by car - the mindset here seems to be "I have a car so I have to use it: going to work, going to the corner shop, taking the kids to school - every time". There's not the same mindset in the rest of Europe and that has to change,
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    • #315
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      Quote Originally Posted by BensGrandad View Post
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      I am fortunate in that I have an OAP bus pass and dont not use the car to go into Brighton, as there is a good bus service from HH,. but many dont and cannot afford the bus fares to nip into 1 shop for a specific item.
      What kind of specialist item are they needing that they have to go into Brighton specifically to purchase that when they can't get it in HH or on the internet?

      Am I watching Brighton or Barcelona?
    • #316
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      Quote Originally Posted by Brovion View Post
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      I agree, but there is a difference between cars in city centres (bad, very very bad) and cars being used as inter-city transport. Simply saying "cars are bad, m'kay" massively over-simplifies the issue. I've pointed out before that a lot of the car-free cities that Stat Brother correctly praises have very efficient Park 'n' Ride systems - Utrecht being a good example.
      Nailed it.

      Car journeys too and between largely populated areas ought to be considerably better than it currently is.

      'one more lane' isn't the answer, it never has been, but it does have to be better, quicker and more efficient.

      But there needs to be a point where you leave the comfort, speed and practicality of your car and easily swap into the comfort, speed and practicality of a mass transit system.

      Neither can be half arsed, neither will be cheap, everything needs to be compatible, and neither have instant results.

      Sadly history shows it will be half arsed, it won't be compatible, it'll all take twice as long and be 10 times more expensive.
      “Melancholy is incompatible with bicycling.” James E Starrs
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    • #317
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      Quote Originally Posted by worthingseagull123 View Post
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      The Guardian.

      Says it all.
      Isn't this post essentially virtue-signalling?

      Am I watching Brighton or Barcelona?
    • #318
      Members Bold Seagull's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Brovion View Post
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      I agree, but there is a difference between cars in city centres (bad, very very bad) and cars being used as inter-city transport. Simply saying "cars are bad, m'kay" massively over-simplifies the issue. I've pointed out before that a lot of the car-free cities that Stat Brother correctly praises have very efficient Park 'n' Ride systems - Utrecht being a good example.
      Yes, completely agree. It requires joined up thinking, and basically investment and vision. The Dutch to be fair to them realised not long into the 1970s that car ownership and numbers of them would continue to grow and that cities would not be able to cope. They designed the car out, whereas we've always made token gestures and designed the car in. That has to change. It seems pretty obvious in retrospect.

      As you say, the Dutch and other cities looked at areas outside the city, and create transport system that can work for all. Maybe there is something to be said for sitting in cafes and smoking spliffs, because they have a remarkable outlook on design, planning, and cultural change. I don't think they have the rabid reactions to finding new ways of doing things. They get on with it.

      I also agree it's not a case of saying 'cars are bad', I own a car. What it is a case of saying is too many cars are bad. Too many cars make inter-city transport an often static slow experience. Too many cars make simple school journeys dangerous. IF, and it's a big if, we were able to change our behaviour, car travel itself maybe radically improved.

      Can anyone really say our roads are safe and easy to get around? Is the current state of transport working? Can we radically improve all forms of transport with some vision and determination? Hope so.
    • #319
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bold Seagull View Post
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      She doesn’t mention taxis?
      She's clearly not as patient as me.
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    • #320
      AlecsGrandad
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bold Seagull View Post
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      Yes, completely agree. It requires joined up thinking, and basically investment and vision. The Dutch to be fair to them realised not long into the 1970s that car ownership and numbers of them would continue to grow and that cities would not be able to cope. They designed the car out, whereas we've always made token gestures and designed the car in. That has to change. It seems pretty obvious in retrospect.

      As you say, the Dutch and other cities looked at areas outside the city, and create transport system that can work for all. Maybe there is something to be said for sitting in cafes and smoking spliffs, because they have a remarkable outlook on design, planning, and cultural change. I don't think they have the rabid reactions to finding new ways of doing things. They get on with it.

      I also agree it's not a case of saying 'cars are bad', I own a car. What it is a case of saying is too many cars are bad. Too many cars make inter-city transport an often static slow experience. Too many cars make simple school journeys dangerous. IF, and it's a big if, we were able to change our behaviour, car travel itself maybe radically improved.

      Can anyone really say our roads are safe and easy to get around? Is the current state of transport working? Can we radically improve all forms of transport with some vision and determination? Hope so.
      Agree 100%. Sadly when it comes to transport Britain has always been terrible at 'joined-up thinking'.

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