[TV] White House Farm

Lenny Rider · Jan 9, 2020

First episode, classic ITV drama, doing what they do best.

Jeremy Bamber nearly 40 years on still protesting his innocence, and taking age into account will probably end up the UK's longest serving prisoner, unless Charles Bronson makes it to 100.

That's Wednesday night sorted for the next 6 weeks.

Cadiz Seagull · Jan 9, 2020

Ive always been interested in this case. Bamber has been in chokey for 35 years plus and still insists he didn't do it. If he'd have admitted it some years back he may well have been parolled by now.

Either he's innocent or really bloody minded!

If you were innocent would you say you did it if that got you out of jail? If he keeps insisting he's innocent he'll stay inside till he dies.

In a way I hope he's guilty, imagine what a terrible thing to go through if he is innocent?

Lenny Rider · Jan 9, 2020

Cadiz Seagull said:
Ive always been interested in this case. Bamber has been in chokey for 35 years plus and still insists he didn't do it. If he'd have admitted it some years back he may well have been parolled by now.

Either he's innocent or really bloody minded!

If you were innocent would you say you did it if that got you out of jail? If he keeps insisting he's innocent he'll stay inside till he dies.

In a way I hope he's guilty, imagine what a terrible thing to go through if he is innocent?

Very similar to the Range Rover Murders in 1995, Jack Whomes was convicted along with Mickey Steele and has been told if he admits to doing it he will almost certainly get paroled, but for whatever reason he won't, and remains inside.

marlowe · Jan 9, 2020

If I was innocent and I had to admit it to get parole I think I'd admit it and once out say my admission didn't count because I had my fingers crossed when I said it.

On a serious note I'm bloody minded so would be loathe to admit to something I hadn't done regardless of the consequences. But then again maybe the "fingers crossed" strategy wouldn't be such a bad idea although I am sure there would be certain conditions attached to your parole, one being that you couldn't subsequently recant your admission once paroled, and if you did it would mean an instant recall to prison.

Beach Seagull · Jan 9, 2020

Cadiz Seagull said:
Ive always been interested in this case. Bamber has been in chokey for 35 years plus and still insists he didn't do it. If he'd have admitted it some years back he may well have been parolled by now.

Either he's innocent or really bloody minded!

If you were innocent would you say you did it if that got you out of jail? If he keeps insisting he's innocent he'll stay inside till he dies.

In a way I hope he's guilty, imagine what a terrible thing to go through if he is innocent?

He was given a 'whole life' sentence in 1994, so even if he had admitted it he will never be released unless he proves his innocence in the Court of Appeal.

Lenny Rider · Jan 9, 2020

marlowe said:
If I was innocent and I had to admit it to get parole I think I'd admit it and once out say my admission didn't count because I had my fingers crossed when I said it.

On a serious note I'm bloody minded so would be loathe to admit to something I hadn't done regardless of the consequences. But then again maybe the "fingers crossed" strategy wouldn't be such a bad idea although I am sure there would be certain conditions attached to your parole, one being that you couldn't subsequently recant your admission once paroled, and if you did it would mean an instant recall to prison.

But if Bamber or Whomes for that matter are innocent, and it eventually is proved, how much money would they be looking at in compensation, Bamber's currently been in custody 35 years, Whomes is 24years.?

Beach Seagull · Jan 9, 2020

Lenny Rider said:
Very similar to the Range Rover Murders in 1995, Jack Whomes was convicted along with Mickey Steele and has been told if he admits to doing it he will almost certainly get paroled, but for whatever reason he won't, and remains inside.[/QUOTE

Not the case. Could be released this year whilst still protesting his innocence.

]https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-44237411

Lenny Rider · Jan 9, 2020

Beach Seagull said:
Lenny Rider said:

Very similar to the Range Rover Murders in 1995, Jack Whomes was convicted along with Mickey Steele and has been told if he admits to doing it he will almost certainly get paroled, but for whatever reason he won't, and remains inside.[/QUOTE

Not the case. Could be released this year whilst still protesting his innocence.

]https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-44237411

Click to expand...

Didn't know this, watched the various Essex Boys documentaries, and thought that they'd made it clear he would any get out when he admitted his alleged crime.

One particular documentary about the Rettendon Murders had a final piece, with about 4 or 5 different people saying they knew who killed, Tate, Tucker and Rolfe and it wasn't the two people in jail. All a little bit Hollywood, but if that many people are prepared to state this on public record, surely there must be something in it?

Beach Seagull · Jan 9, 2020

Lenny Rider said:
Beach Seagull said:

Didn't know this, watched the various Essex Boys documentaries, and thought that they'd made it clear he would any get out when he admitted his alleged crime.

One particular documentary about the Rettendon Murders had a final piece, with about 4 or 5 different people saying they knew who killed, Tate, Tucker and Rolfe and it wasn't the two people in jail. All a little bit Hollywood, but if that many people are prepared to state this on public record, surely there must be something in it?

Click to expand...

I would agree must be something in it. The main evidence used to convict them was the evidence of a supergrass who had everything to gain by giving evidence against them.

Beach Seagull · Jan 9, 2020

Lenny Rider said:
But if Bamber or Whomes for that matter are innocent, and it eventually is proved, how much money would they be looking at in compensation, Bamber's currently been in custody 35 years, Whomes is 24years.?

Wouldn't for certain get any compensation. Sam Hallam didn't get a penny after spending 7 years in prison for a murder he didn't commit. Sion Jenkins didn't get any (I don't have sympathy for him).

jevs · Jan 9, 2020

Lenny Rider said:
Beach Seagull said:

Didn't know this, watched the various Essex Boys documentaries, and thought that they'd made it clear he would any get out when he admitted his alleged crime.

One particular documentary about the Rettendon Murders had a final piece, with about 4 or 5 different people saying they knew who killed, Tate, Tucker and Rolfe and it wasn't the two people in jail. All a little bit Hollywood, but if that many people are prepared to state this on public record, surely there must be something in it?

Click to expand...

Another rumour was the old bill wanted these parasites off the streets and committed the murder themselves....framing a couple of others in the process. Job done, the whole gang off the street

Lenny Rider · Jan 9, 2020

jevs said:
Lenny Rider said:

Another rumour was the old bill wanted these parasites off the streets and committed the murder themselves....framing a couple of others in the process. Job done, the whole gang off the street

Click to expand...

But 2 men in prison for something they didn't do.

Beach Seagull · Jan 9, 2020

jevs said:
Lenny Rider said:

Another rumour was the old bill wanted these parasites off the streets and committed the murder themselves....framing a couple of others in the process. Job done, the whole gang off the street

Click to expand...

I'm no expert but that seems very far fetched and very risky, would be easier to completely frame them for a crime and ensure they get very long sentences. What Copper in his right mind would agree to do that knowing the implications if it goes wrong (death or a very long prison sentence). But who knows what murky stuff does go on.

Lenny Rider · Jan 9, 2020

I remember seeing John McVicar being interviewed on Tv in the 1980's, and he was asked who would be the best person to contact if you wanted someone duffed up, and he replied "probably the Police"

Lenny Rider · Jan 21, 2020

Timing of all this somewhat suspect?

Jeremy Bamber has claimed he did not kill his family, blaming sister Sheila (Image: PA)

Jeremy Bamber has spoken from his prison cell to again insist he did not murder his family in a *farmyard *bloodbath 35 years ago.
And the convicted killer claims new evidence shows there was still life inside the house while he was speaking to dozens of police outside – which he hopes will clear his name.

His lawyers say officers did not enter White House Farm where his 61-year-old parents Nevill and June, sister Sheila Caffell, 26, and her twins Nicholas and Daniel, six, were *butchered for nearly four hours, amid fears someone was alive inside, possibly with a gun.
Speaking from his cell in Wakefield, West Yorks, Bamber said: “It is the ultimate alibi that I was in the company of dozens of police officers when it was clear that a person or persons were alive in the house who I am convicted of murdering.”
He claims schizophrenic Sheila murdered her sons and parents.
But author Carol Ann Lee, who exchanged regular letters with Bamber for her book Murders at White House Farm, said she has no doubts about his guilt.

Jeremy Bamber Murder Who killed five membrs of his family remended in custody Dbase MSI
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She said the overriding piece of evidence was a gruesome crime scene photograph, which has never been published, which showed the murders were committed by somebody “extremely adept with a gun, who knew what they were doing”.
Ms Lee added: “Sheila didn’t, she was also on medication for her illness, which made her unco-ordinated.”
Bamber’s girlfriend Julie Mugford also told police he planned the slaughter in a bid to get his hands on the family inheritance and had phoned her, saying: “Tonight’s the night.”
The fresh claims from Bamber’s legal team come as the 1985 murders are being portrayed in the ITV drama White House Farm, *starring Freddie Fox as the mass killer.

Bambi Caffell with twin sons Nicholas and Daniel (Image: Collect Unknown)

Sheila's sons Daniel, left, and Nicholas who were murdered by their uncle (Image: Collect)
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They will form part of an appeal bid in a submission to the Criminal Cases Review Commission.
Bamber’s lawyer Mark Newby claims the new evidence is “strong”.

Police have always maintained that everyone in the farmhouse at *Tolleshunt D’Arcy, Essex, was dead by around 3.30am. Bamber lived in nearby Goldhanger.
But his legal team say a rifle was spotted in an upstairs window by two separate firearms officers at around 7am on the morning of the murder.

Crime Jeremy Bamber White House Farm at Tolleshunt d'Arcy Essex taken during the trial Dbase MSI
And included in the other new evidence is a claim that a 999 call was made from within the house at 6.09am.
Documents seen by the Mirror show a BT operator connected police to an open line at the farm at 05.50am, meaning the handset must have been put back on to make the 6.09am call.

Jeremy's parents Neville and June Bamber (Image: Collect Unknown)

PC Chris Whiddon holding the .22 rifle and silencer used by Jeremy Bamber
The gun was found on Sheila’s body. Ballistics expert Bruce Jones claimed the .22 rifle used in the *killings would not have been loud enough for police to “associate its noise with a shot being fired”.
Other evidence shows windows at the farm may have been opened after 3.30am and lights turned off between 4am and 5am.
"Mr Newby said: “Because I haven’t received evidence that contradicts it, I can’t necessarily say it isn’t anything other than it was Sheila.

Jeremy Bamber and his then girlfriend Julie Mugford at the funeral of three of the relatives that he murdered (Image: PA)
"These things shouldn’t have been happening at those times if it was Jeremy. So it causes a real worry.”

Bamber, who was 24 at the time and later jailed for life, *criticised Fox’s portrayal of him, claiming “it is nothing like me”, and he was able to “make things up for dramatic effect”.
He said: “I am concerned ITV are now cashing in on the tragedy.” ITV insisted it did “meticulous research”.
Essex Police said a number of appeals and reviews have “never found anything to suggest Bamber was wrongly convicted”.

marlowe · Jan 21, 2020

Bamber claimed that his father phoned him to alert him that they were being attacked by Sheila.

Was it ever established by phone records that a phone call was made from the farmhouse to Bamber's residence (pre mobile phones) around the time the murders were happening? If Bamber answered, as he claims, then a record would surely have existed of that call having been made.

If there is no record then it would have established that Bamber was lying.

If there is such a record it would not necessarily have given Bamber a cast iron alibi but would open the possibility that he had an accomplice (possibly his girlfriend) who answered his phone to the call which may have been made by Bamber himself from the farmhouse immediately after he had committed the murders.

Lenny Rider · Jan 21, 2020

But a bit late to bring it up in 2020 when it happened in 1985?

Albion my Albion · Jan 21, 2020

Lenny Rider said:
First episode, classic ITV drama, doing what they do best.

Jeremy Bamber nearly 40 years on still protesting his innocence, and taking age into account will probably end up the UK's longest serving prisoner, unless Charles Bronson makes it to 100.

That's Wednesday night sorted for the next 6 weeks.

Charles Bronson passed in 2003. My aunt knows his sister. She, Mrs. Engert, Bronson's sister, was a very "regular" person who married a German American from Missouri when they met at Fort Dix in New Jersey during WWII. Her husband's name was Lee. Mrs. Buchinsky Engert was from a rural Pennsylvania coal mining town. She always said that Charles was a real sweet heart that he was never like the characters he played in films. She said when Jill Ireland died it truly broke Charles' heart and when Charles remarried later in life she truly disliked his younger wife who only seemed to be after Charles fame and money.

happypig · Jan 21, 2020

marlowe said:
Bamber claimed that his father phoned him to alert him that they were being attacked by Sheila.

Was it ever established by phone records that a phone call was made from the farmhouse to Bamber's residence (pre mobile phones) around the time the murders were happening? If Bamber answered, as he claims, then a record would surely have existed of that call having been made.

If there is no record then it would have established that Bamber was lying.

If there is such a record it would not necessarily have given Bamber a cast iron alibi but would open the possibility that he had an accomplice (possibly his girlfriend) who answered his phone to the call which may have been made by Bamber himself from the farmhouse immediately after he had committed the murders.

No phone records then, it was mostly electromechanical and metering was by pulses; the frequency of the pulses determined by the number dialled (once it had answered)

marlowe · Jan 21, 2020

happypig said:
No phone records then, it was mostly electromechanical and metering was by pulses; the frequency of the pulses determined by the number dialled (once it had answered)

Does that mean you couldn't get itemised bills in those days?

Edit: Just found out itemised bills were introduced in 1987.

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