[Film] Spolieriffic Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker Discussion SPOILERS

Acker79 · Dec 22, 2019

So the film was released on Wednesday night. People have had all day Thursday, Friday and Saturday to watch it. While we all have our preferred days, Friday and Saturday evenings tend to be the big nights for film watching. So I think it has been long enough to hold in the spoiler talk.

vegster · Dec 22, 2019

So does Adam Driver plant Daisy Ridley in order to start the Skywalker lineage ? Not seen previous or this film so only surmising.

Stat Brother · Dec 22, 2019

***SPOILER***

Too many songs.
A surprising number of cats.

Not what I was expecting.

Swansman · Dec 22, 2019

Impressive how they can keep milking this shit despite not making one watchable movie for almost 40 years.

Triggaaar · Dec 22, 2019

Where the **** did the Emporer's body come from? He seemed to blow up in Death Star 2, before the Deathstar itself was blown up.

Acker79 · Dec 22, 2019

This is based on a single viewing, immediately after watching Episodes 7 and 8, so I could have been ‘star wars-ed out’ or tiredly irritable when watching Episode 9. My friend really enjoyed it and he only saw Ep9. so maybe?

Typically, when a brand film like this, with a passionate fan base like Star Wars, is released the IMDB rating is really high because the fanboys vote it 10/10 in their masses, then comes down as non-die hard fans go to watch it and aren’t blinded by loyalty. The Dark Knight, most Marvel Movies, Harry Potter, all started with IMDB ratings in the 9s (they’re now mostly low 8s/mid 7s).

As off the moment I checked (about 4am after watching the midnight opening) Ep9 was 6.6. I've just checked and in the three and a half days since it's release, it has crept up to 7.0/10.

I know some fans felt like Force Awakens was a glorified remake of New Hope, but it still felt fresh and more original to me than this one did. And this one didn’t even feel like a remake. After the identity Rian Johnson gave The Last Jedi, and said criticism of TFA, I had hoped JJ would push himself to do something special, something fresh and original with a bit of directorial style and flair. Instead he seemed to play it far too safe, so it’s all flat and feels far too 'safe'. It’s like they were so scared of upsetting the fans, rather than focusing telling their story, they tried to tell the story they think the fans want.

There is also something about Kylo Ren, that I struggle to really connect with. He has a cool look, and I love Adam Driver, not least for his part in this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Aq4a7g_wdU

But because of that lack of connection, I’ve struggled with his story arc and his redemption. I think it’s because he always acted like a pouty child rather than a full on villain like Vader, it made it hard to take him as the unredeemable evil they kept trying to convince us he was (especially in a film series in which redemption of the supposed bad guy has been a major point). Or maybe, I believed them that he was irredeemable, and his redemption thus feels false.

One of the things I liked about the Last Jedi was it opening up the universe and heroism beyond 'the chosen one' mentality. I know that was unpopular, and that to appease the fans, they would go back and make Rey connected to someone from the past, and that with only two established really powerful family lines Rey would end up belonging to one or t’other, but it still felt unsatisfactory to have he be a Palpatine. Maybe it was the execution, it felt too obvious and was revealed too simplistically, or maybe it's that Palpatine felt like a one-off rather than a lineage like Skywalker.

These were my initial issues, plot-wise:
-Palpatine survived, but they glossed over how. He was thrown into the power core of an exploding death star. How did he survive that?
-Palpatine had a son something that was completely missing from the original trilogy, did he have them after surviving the exploding death star or before? It felt too normal for someone who is supposed to be this ultimate evil. It felt like they forced themselves into making Rey a Palpatine because they thought it would be cool symmatry - Palpatine trying to turn Skywalker to the darkside in the original trilogy becomes skywalker trying to turn palpatine to the darkside, but that makes Star Wars into a family feud that it never was. It was never Skywalkers v Palpatines, so making Rey a Palpatine felt like an attempt to appease fans who were disappointed that her parents were 'nobodies'. That wouldn't be so bad if they really committed, but they introduced Palpatine's son and in-law to keep that 'rey's parents are nobodies'. Either retcon it, or don't. Don't do some half-assed thing.

For me that was emblematic of the problems with the film. They chickened out, too much. This is meant to be the big finale, the last of the Skywalker saga. Leave it all out on the table, not everyone will survive. But every time it felt like they were going to do something interesting, they undid it a few minutes later.

-Oh my god, they've killed Chewie! And it was Rey that did it - maybe she is going to go to the darkside... oh, no. He's alive, she didn't do anything and she'll find out before she is even tested by the emperor.
-Gasp! They're wiping Threepio's memory?! And he tells us R2 doesn't have a back up. Nooo! Oh, it's ok, R2 has a back from the very same day Threepio told us he doesn't have them.
-Hux is the mole? This could be interes- nope he's dead.
-Kill me, kill me and you will become me! Kill me and I will live in you! No! I won't! You're friends are beaten, kill me become a sith and end the jedi, take control of my empire and rule the galaxy. I will reluctantly kill you, except now Ben Solo is here and I won't have to. I'll just kill you now and not become sith. WTF? Why didn't she become Sith when she killed him? If she had to do something after killing him to become Sith (I have a vague recollection of a mention of a ritual) what was to stop her striking him down and walking away before she even knew Ben was there, too?
-Leia told Rey to not be afraid of who she is, knowing that she was a palpatine, so why is she looking on approvingly at the end when Rey hides who she is taking the name Skywalker.
-TFA, JJ Abram's film, introduced the idea of a potential relationship between Rey and Finn. This was continued into TLJ, but with the added complication of Rose seemingly having a crush on Finn. Both were seemingly dropped for this film, without any sort of closure.

Not the film backing away from things they were doing, but still issues I had:
-Both the Rey/Ren kiss and Ren fading as he became one with force/died were met with a lot of laughter, in a room full of people who are such fans they will go to the midnight opening.
-Mid battle with the knights of Ren, Ben Solo just bent over and held his lightsaber behind his back and waited for one of the Knights of Ren to hit the lightsabre and not any other part of his prone body. It wasn't a particularly smooth flowing move. Time seemed to stop, and in a gap in the belt he turned his back, bent over and waited. Felt silly.
-“Send a ship out to a planet everyone knows, and destroy it” I know, let’s go for this planet we’ve only just met. All the planets they could have visited from the previous 10 films, and they go with the one we've only just met, and didn't really spend time bonding with it. Imagine Coruscant being destroyed, or Naboo, or Jakuu, or Endor. Obviously they couldn't destroy Tattoine because of the ending planned, but imagine the joy they could have brought to fans be blowing up Naboo with JarJar on there.
-Finn and Jannah must have Spidey grip to climb on top of the Falcon and not fall off when it speeds away (flipping as it goes).

No clear explanation for how people who were bridged by the force by Snoke, can remain bridged after he dies. Now why they can now transfer physical matter between their locations.

Neutral:
Palpatine said he ‘made’ Snoke? There were tubes with what looked like dead Snokes, but it was glossed over, did he literally make Snoke like the clone army were made? Would have liked a bit more on that.
Harrison Ford is looking more and more like ALF.
Power of healing - the Last Jedi introduced the projection power to the films - Rian Johnson tweeted out shots of a Jedi book that shows it was a power that was cannon, just hadn't been seen in the films. I liked it in TLJ, and Luke's description of the force would actually make healing being a power actually in keeping with what the force is. I am also open to it being in that same book as a power that just hadn't made it into the film, but it did feel a little convenient.
I liked the contraption keeping the frail emperor alive, though it reminded me of something, possibly brainiac in superman comics/cartoon?

Positives
Chewie getting a medal - it was a bit of an in joke, but I liked it.
Poe was still funny (his loss of faith and confidence did seem a bit extreme considering how confident he had been in previous instalments).
Not another Death Star finale
Some beautiful shots

Acker79 · Dec 22, 2019

vegster said:
So does Adam Driver plant Daisy Ridley in order to start the Skywalker lineage ? Not seen previous or this film so only surmising.

What do you mean "Plant her"? If that a sex thing, are you asking if he has impregnated her so when she goes to Tattoine at the end she has a baby skywalker to come along?

Acker79 · Dec 22, 2019

Stat Brother said:
***SPOILER***

Too many songs.
A surprising number of cats.

Not what I was expecting.

There was that big dance number on the planet whose name I don't recall. I know that we had the cantina band, the dancing girl at Jabba's palace, and the celebrations on Naboo and Endor, but this dance number seemed bigger and more choreographed, and would have been more fitting in Cats than Star Wars. And I say that as someone who liked Cats (and musicals in general)

Thunder Bolt · Dec 22, 2019

One point ; 3PIO said R2's backups were notoriously unreliable not that he didn't have a back up.

Acker79 · Dec 22, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
One point ; 3PIO said R2's backups were notoriously unreliable not that he didn't have a back up.

Maybe, but it's still a contradiction. Threepio wrote it off as an option, to suggest the memory wipe would be permanent, and a few scenes later he's back to his old self. It irritated me that they kept going back and contradicting themselves. It's not even contradicting a previous instalment, which would be bad enough, but to not even keep to what you've written in your own film.

AmexRuislip · Dec 22, 2019

Acker79 said:
This is based on a single viewing, immediately after watching Episodes 7 and 8, so I could have been ‘star wars-ed out’ or tiredly irritable when watching Episode 9. My friend really enjoyed it and he only saw Ep9. so maybe?

Typically, when a brand film like this, with a passionate fan base like Star Wars, is released the IMDB rating is really high because the fanboys vote it 10/10 in their masses, then comes down as non-die hard fans go to watch it and aren’t blinded by loyalty. The Dark Knight, most Marvel Movies, Harry Potter, all started with IMDB ratings in the 9s (they’re now mostly low 8s/mid 7s).

As off the moment I checked (about 4am after watching the midnight opening) Ep9 was 6.6. I've just checked and in the three and a half days since it's release, it has crept up to 7.0/10.

I know some fans felt like Force Awakens was a glorified remake of New Hope, but it still felt fresh and more original to me than this one did. And this one didn’t even feel like a remake. After the identity Rian Johnson gave The Last Jedi, and said criticism of TFA, I had hoped JJ would push himself to do something special, something fresh and original with a bit of directorial style and flair. Instead he seemed to play it far too safe, so it’s all flat and feels far too 'safe'. It’s like they were so scared of upsetting the fans, rather than focusing telling their story, they tried to tell the story they think the fans want.

There is also something about Kylo Ren, that I struggle to really connect with. He has a cool look, and I love Adam Driver, not least for his part in this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Aq4a7g_wdU

But because of that lack of connection, I’ve struggled with his story arc and his redemption. I think it’s because he always acted like a pouty child rather than a full on villain like Vader, it made it hard to take him as the unredeemable evil they kept trying to convince us he was (especially in a film series in which redemption of the supposed bad guy has been a major point). Or maybe, I believed them that he was irredeemable, and his redemption thus feels false.

One of the things I liked about the Last Jedi was it opening up the universe and heroism beyond 'the chosen one' mentality. I know that was unpopular, and that to appease the fans, they would go back and make Rey connected to someone from the past, and that with only two established really powerful family lines Rey would end up belonging to one or t’other, but it still felt unsatisfactory to have he be a Palpatine. Maybe it was the execution, it felt too obvious and was revealed too simplistically, or maybe it's that Palpatine felt like a one-off rather than a lineage like Skywalker.

These were my initial issues, plot-wise:
-Palpatine survived, but they glossed over how. He was thrown into the power core of an exploding death star. How did he survive that?
-Palpatine had a son something that was completely missing from the original trilogy, did he have them after surviving the exploding death star or before? It felt too normal for someone who is supposed to be this ultimate evil. It felt like they forced themselves into making Rey a Palpatine because they thought it would be cool symmatry - Palpatine trying to turn Skywalker to the darkside in the original trilogy becomes skywalker trying to turn palpatine to the darkside, but that makes Star Wars into a family feud that it never was. It was never Skywalkers v Palpatines, so making Rey a Palpatine felt like an attempt to appease fans who were disappointed that her parents were 'nobodies'. That wouldn't be so bad if they really committed, but they introduced Palpatine's son and in-law to keep that 'rey's parents are nobodies'. Either retcon it, or don't. Don't do some half-assed thing.

For me that was emblematic of the problems with the film. They chickened out, too much. This is meant to be the big finale, the last of the Skywalker saga. Leave it all out on the table, not everyone will survive. But every time it felt like they were going to do something interesting, they undid it a few minutes later.

-Oh my god, they've killed Chewie! And it was Rey that did it - maybe she is going to go to the darkside... oh, no. He's alive, she didn't do anything and she'll find out before she is even tested by the emperor.
-Gasp! They're wiping Threepio's memory?! And he tells us R2 doesn't have a back up. Nooo! Oh, it's ok, R2 has a back from the very same day Threepio told us he doesn't have them.
-Hux is the mole? This could be interes- nope he's dead.
-Kill me, kill me and you will become me! Kill me and I will live in you! No! I won't! You're friends are beaten, kill me become a sith and end the jedi, take control of my empire and rule the galaxy. I will reluctantly kill you, except now Ben Solo is here and I won't have to. I'll just kill you now and not become sith. WTF? Why didn't she become Sith when she killed him? If she had to do something after killing him to become Sith (I have a vague recollection of a mention of a ritual) what was to stop her striking him down and walking away before she even knew Ben was there, too?
-Leia told Rey to not be afraid of who she is, knowing that she was a palpatine, so why is she looking on approvingly at the end when Rey hides who she is taking the name Skywalker.
-TFA, JJ Abram's film, introduced the idea of a potential relationship between Rey and Finn. This was continued into TLJ, but with the added complication of Rose seemingly having a crush on Finn. Both were seemingly dropped for this film, without any sort of closure.

Not the film backing away from things they were doing, but still issues I had:
-Both the Rey/Ren kiss and Ren fading as he became one with force/died were met with a lot of laughter, in a room full of people who are such fans they will go to the midnight opening.
-Mid battle with the knights of Ren, Ben Solo just bent over and held his lightsaber behind his back and waited for one of the Knights of Ren to hit the lightsabre and not any other part of his prone body. It wasn't a particularly smooth flowing move. Time seemed to stop, and in a gap in the belt he turned his back, bent over and waited. Felt silly.
-“Send a ship out to a planet everyone knows, and destroy it” I know, let’s go for this planet we’ve only just met. All the planets they could have visited from the previous 10 films, and they go with the one we've only just met, and didn't really spend time bonding with it. Imagine Coruscant being destroyed, or Naboo, or Jakuu, or Endor. Obviously they couldn't destroy Tattoine because of the ending planned, but imagine the joy they could have brought to fans be blowing up Naboo with JarJar on there.
-Finn and Jannah must have Spidey grip to climb on top of the Falcon and not fall off when it speeds away (flipping as it goes).

No clear explanation for how people who were bridged by the force by Snoke, can remain bridged after he dies. Now why they can now transfer physical matter between their locations.

Neutral:
Palpatine said he ‘made’ Snoke? There were tubes with what looked like dead Snokes, but it was glossed over, did he literally make Snoke like the clone army were made? Would have liked a bit more on that.
Harrison Ford is looking more and more like ALF.
Power of healing - the Last Jedi introduced the projection power to the films - Rian Johnson tweeted out shots of a Jedi book that shows it was a power that was cannon, just hadn't been seen in the films. I liked it in TLJ, and Luke's description of the force would actually make healing being a power actually in keeping with what the force is. I am also open to it being in that same book as a power that just hadn't made it into the film, but it did feel a little convenient.
I liked the contraption keeping the frail emperor alive, though it reminded me of something, possibly brainiac in superman comics/cartoon?

Positives
Chewie getting a medal - it was a bit of an in joke, but I liked it.
Poe was still funny (his loss of faith and confidence did seem a bit extreme considering how confident he had been in previous instalments).
Not another Death Star finale
Some beautiful shots

Which of these notes are pasted and copied from another spoiler alert :wozza:

Acker79 · Dec 22, 2019

AmexRuislip said:
Which of these notes are pasted and copied from another spoiler alert

What do you mean? If I go see a big film like that I often write down my thought on my phone while waiting for a bus or laptop when I get home, so that when my friends have seen it I can remember everything I wanted to say (and for threads such as these). But those notes were a bit of a mess and I spent some time putting them into a (slightly) more cohesive order. So I copy and pasted from my notes app, then tidied them up, but it's all my own writing, all my own thoughts while watching/digesting it immediately after. I don't claim them as unique views so others may have made the same/similar points elsewhere.

AmexRuislip · Dec 22, 2019

Acker79 said:
What do you mean? If I go see a big film like that I often write down my thought on my phone while waiting for a bus or laptop when I get home, so that when my friends have seen it I can remember everything I wanted to say (and for threads such as these). But those notes were a bit of a mess and I spent some time putting them into a (slightly) more cohesive order. So I copy and pasted from my notes app, then tidied them up, but it's all my own writing, all my own thoughts while watching/digesting it immediately after. I don't claim them as unique views so others may have made the same/similar points elsewhere.

Kinky Gerbil · Dec 22, 2019

For me it was too rushed, it suffered from them wanting to ignore the second film.

I’m not sure they mapped out how they wanted it to end so we were left with this.

Adam Driver was the best think about the trilogy for me, but I wish he didn’t turn good at the end and the kiss!!!!

vegster · Dec 22, 2019

Acker79 said:
What do you mean "Plant her"? If that a sex thing, are you asking if he has impregnated her so when she goes to Tattoine at the end she has a baby skywalker to come along?

Yes.

Acker79 · Dec 22, 2019

vegster said:
Yes.

In case, taken at face value in the film, no. The kiss before dying is the only intimate physical contact we get any hint of them sharing. But I'm sure if they want to pick the story up, they can say there was something special about their force bond.

Chicken Run · Dec 22, 2019

Just seen it, imho the best of the last three but still left feeling let down!

Does anyone remember the young lad towards the end of TLJ who force moved the broom/shovel, was fully expecting something more from that??

Luke93 · Dec 22, 2019

Who was the old lady who said ‘no one has been here for a long time’? Any significance or just a random character?

Acker79 · Dec 22, 2019

Chicken Run said:
Does anyone remember the young lad towards the end of TLJ who force moved the broom/shovel, was fully expecting something more from that??

If there hadn't been a loud outcry from some of the Star Wars fans, we may have. Rian Johnson tried to evolve star wars beyond Skywalker family troubles, and the noisier fans rejected it. With a lot of venom. It burned Disney so they tried to cast off as much of the Last Jedi as they could.

As of now, Rian Johnson is still expected to work on his own trilogy set in the star wars universe, unrelated to the Skywalker saga, so it may be something he picks up in his stories. Or Disney may be too scared people won't come because of the venom TLJ received. Or Johnson may just decide it's not worth it.

CliveWalkerWingWizard · Dec 22, 2019

I think it was the best of the last three, it felt that it was rushed. The scenes with Carrie Fisher felt false, I would have thought that with cgi they could have been smoother. Definitely lots of holes in the plot, never felt any suspense. Definitely could have been worse, but could have been a lot better.

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[Film] Spolieriffic Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker Discussion SPOILERS