[Politics] The General Election Thread

wellquickwoody · Nov 22, 2019

Bold Seagull said:
This notion that someone sitting on the political fence is some kind of enlightened position of political freewill or intellectual flexibility I find frankly ludicrous. You are political centrists simple as that, as wedded to an ideology as anyone else, the only difference is political parties skirt into your politics at different times, but you are no different to someone who believes in the politics of the left or the right. Centrists are as entrenched as anyone else. Their fall back position of "I voted Labour in 1997, but Libs in 2005, then Tory in 2010, I'm so above those that follow a party..." is a delusion.

Politics is about passion, believe, ambition. It can be exciting, but it can also deliver huge lows, feel desperate. The parallels with watching a football team are in some respect are relevant, and true. You don't always agree with your football team's decisions, their manager, their owner or chairman, their tactics – but it's better than following the another team.

Please tell me, these enlightened individuals who take this higher ground on not following a particular party, who does a person who believe in policies of the left vote for other than Labour or Green? There is no one else. Even Blair's Tory-lite Labour was still more left than the other main parties have ever been.

Get off your fences, start ignoring the personalities and looking at the policies. You have to pick a side. If you don't like what you see, you have to pick the lesser evil. It is that simple.

Possibly the most ridiculous comment that I have ever had the misfortune to read on here. I had you down as an ideological idiot before, now I will just stick with a complete fxxking idiot.

beorhthelm · Nov 22, 2019

Bold Seagull said:
This notion that someone sitting on the political fence is some kind of enlightened position of political freewill or intellectual flexibility I find frankly ludicrous. You are political centrists simple as that, as wedded to an ideology as anyone else, the only difference is political parties skirt into your politics at different times, but you are no different to someone who believes in the politics of the left or the right. Centrists are as entrenched as anyone else. Their fall back position of "I voted Labour in 1997, but Libs in 2005, then Tory in 2010, I'm so above those that follow a party..." is a delusion.

Politics is about passion, believe, ambition. It can be exciting, but it can also deliver huge lows, feel desperate. The parallels with watching a football team are in some respect are relevant, and true. You don't always agree with your football team's decisions, their manager, their owner or chairman, their tactics – but it's better than following the another team.

Please tell me, these enlightened individuals who take this higher ground on not following a particular party, who does a person who believe in policies of the left vote for other than Labour or Green? There is no one else. Even Blair's Tory-lite Labour was still more left than the other main parties have ever been.

Get off your fences, start ignoring the personalities and looking at the policies. You have to pick a side. If you don't like what you see, you have to pick the lesser evil. It is that simple.

what utter bobbins.

Guinness Boy · Nov 22, 2019

Bold Seagull said:
This notion that someone sitting on the political fence is some kind of enlightened position of political freewill or intellectual flexibility I find frankly ludicrous. You are political centrists simple as that, as wedded to an ideology as anyone else, the only difference is political parties skirt into your politics at different times, but you are no different to someone who believes in the politics of the left or the right. Centrists are as entrenched as anyone else. Their fall back position of "I voted Labour in 1997, but Libs in 2005, then Tory in 2010, I'm so above those that follow a party..." is a delusion.

Politics is about passion, believe, ambition. It can be exciting, but it can also deliver huge lows, feel desperate. The parallels with watching a football team are in some respect are relevant, and true. You don't always agree with your football team's decisions, their manager, their owner or chairman, their tactics – but it's better than following the another team.

Please tell me, these enlightened individuals who take this higher ground on not following a particular party, who does a person who believe in policies of the left vote for other than Labour or Green? There is no one else. Even Blair's Tory-lite Labour was still more left than the other main parties have ever been.

Get off your fences, start ignoring the personalities and looking at the policies. You have to pick a side. If you don't like what you see, you have to pick the lesser evil. It is that simple.

Where did I say I didn't pick a side? I do - I just reserve the right to choose a different one every time. I've voted Labour, Lib Dem and Independant in the past and I voted Green in the European Elections held this year. I would vote Tory if they managed to come up with a sensible One Nation leader and a good local candidate but Boris is unelectable and therefore I am back to my default that Kyle is a far more polished and experienced politician that the unproven Nemeth and he's a centerist remainer who will keep Corbyn honest from within Labour - there are far too few of them left thanks to Momentum.

I've also said that if this was a Presidential election between Johnson and Corbyn I would very deliberately abstain, and that the right to do so is as important as the right to vote. Both are awful. Carry on waiving the red flag just because you always have, if that makes you feel better, but I've always got the impression that you were a social liberal and I'm not quite sure how that sits with Jeremy's baffling and oscillating Brexit position, the desire for the state to control the internet and the rampant anti Semitism in Labour.

Bold Seagull · Nov 22, 2019

Guinness Boy said:
Where did I say I didn't pick a side? I do - I just reserve the right to choose a different one every time. I've voted Labour, Lib Dem and Independant in the past and I voted Green in the European Elections held this year. I would vote Tory if they managed to come up with a sensible One Nation leader and a good local candidate but Boris is unelectable and therefore I am back to my default that Kyle is a far more polished and experienced politician that the unproven Nemeth and he's a centerist remainer who will keep Corbyn honest from within Labour - there are far too few of them left thanks to Momentum.

I've also said that if this was a Presidential election between Johnson and Corbyn I would very deliberately abstain, and that the right to do so is as important as the right to vote. Both are awful. Carry on waiving the red flag just because you always have, if that makes you feel better, but I've always got the impression that you were a social liberal and I'm not quite sure how that sits with Jeremy's baffling and oscillating Brexit position, the desire for the state to control the internet and the rampant anti Semitism in Labour.

Wasn't aimed at you GB. I don't feel you've ever espoused voting for various parties as a virtue, simply your personal political decision. I'm talking about those that feel they're above the people that are passionately behind a party and it's beliefs. If that wasn't the case, politics would be no where, we'd have nothing from any of the parties if there weren't people from the ground up passionate about what they believe in. So no, wasn't aimed at you, but aimed at those that think following a party is somehow less enlightened.

Guinness Boy · Nov 22, 2019

Bold Seagull said:
This notion that someone sitting on the political fence is some kind of enlightened position of political freewill or intellectual flexibility I find frankly ludicrous. You are political centrists simple as that, as wedded to an ideology as anyone else, the only difference is political parties skirt into your politics at different times, but you are no different to someone who believes in the politics of the left or the right. Centrists are as entrenched as anyone else. Their fall back position of "I voted Labour in 1997, but Libs in 2005, then Tory in 2010, I'm so above those that follow a party..." is a delusion.

Politics is about passion, believe, ambition. It can be exciting, but it can also deliver huge lows, feel desperate. The parallels with watching a football team are in some respect are relevant, and true. You don't always agree with your football team's decisions, their manager, their owner or chairman, their tactics – but it's better than following the another team.

Please tell me, these enlightened individuals who take this higher ground on not following a particular party, who does a person who believe in policies of the left vote for other than Labour or Green? There is no one else. Even Blair's Tory-lite Labour was still more left than the other main parties have ever been.

Get off your fences, start ignoring the personalities and looking at the policies. You have to pick a side. If you don't like what you see, you have to pick the lesser evil. It is that simple.

Guinness Boy said:
Where did I say I didn't pick a side? I do - I just reserve the right to choose a different one every time. I've voted Labour, Lib Dem and Independant in the past and I voted Green in the European Elections held this year. I would vote Tory if they managed to come up with a sensible One Nation leader and a good local candidate but Boris is unelectable and therefore I am back to my default that Kyle is a far more polished and experienced politician that the unproven Nemeth and he's a centerist remainer who will keep Corbyn honest from within Labour - there are far too few of them left thanks to Momentum.

I've also said that if this was a Presidential election between Johnson and Corbyn I would very deliberately abstain, and that the right to do so is as important as the right to vote. Both are awful. Carry on waiving the red flag just because you always have, if that makes you feel better, but I've always got the impression that you were a social liberal and I'm not quite sure how that sits with Jeremy's baffling and oscillating Brexit position, the desire for the state to control the internet and the rampant anti Semitism in Labour.

In fact, thinking about it further, I'll give you a specific example. If Rory Stewart had won the leadership contest instead of Boris I'd be voting Tory this time round. I've often heard it said "he's not really a Tory" and thanks to their lurch to the right he no longer is, but it's exactly the same thing you hear people with intransigent views say about the likes of Blair or (nearer home) Warren Morgan (red tories, not really Labour), just because they're prepared to compromise.

A1X · Nov 22, 2019

[TWEET]1197786344594006016[/TWEET]

Bold Seagull · Nov 22, 2019

beorhthelm said:
what utter bobbins.

That's politics. :shrug:

Utter bobbins is probably right. :hilton:

Guinness Boy · Nov 22, 2019

Bold Seagull said:
Wasn't aimed at you GB. I don't feel you've ever espoused voting for various parties as a virtue, simply your personal political decision. I'm talking about those that feel they're above the people that are passionately behind a party and it's beliefs. If that wasn't the case, politics would be no where, we'd have nothing from any of the parties if there weren't people from the ground up passionate about what they believe in. So no, wasn't aimed at you, but aimed at those that think following a party is somehow less enlightened.

Added my second post as you were writing this. ^^ Fair enough :thumbsup:

Bold Seagull · Nov 22, 2019

A1X said:
[TWEET]1197786344594006016[/TWEET]

That is amazing.

We want to talk about leaving the EU, standing on our own 2 feet, and yet Labour's plan is seen as some kind of ridiculous never before seen dystopian communist vision.

But really, it's just a bit more than Germany, but well below France, the whole of Scandinavia, Italy etc...

It looks revolutionary because the reality of our spending right now is embarrassing.

WATFORD zero · Nov 22, 2019

Weststander said:
I know all this with my eyes closed, it’s my profession.

Now:
Company profit £50,000
Before a salary of £8,628
Profit after salary £41,372
Corporation tax bill £7,861
Leaving £33,511 for dividends
The first £2,000 of which are tax free
Income tax on the balance of £31,511 = £2,363

Under Corbyn’s plan today:
Company profit £50,000
Before a salary of £8,628
Profit after salary £41,372
Corporation tax bill £7,861. But will McDonnell increase this from 19%?
Leaving £33,511 for dividends
The first £2,000 of which are tax free. But will McDonnell scrap this?
Income tax on the balance of £33,511 = 6,302

Overnight that small businessmen/family are out of pocket by £3,939 per annum.

Most businessmen start because they have an idea, or are made redundant, hate their boss, hate being in a master and servant arrangement, like the flexibility, many people do it now because it works with their child arrangements and so on. Only the people like famously John Burt at the BBC set up a limited company purely as tax avoidance. IR35 and the Badges of Trade rules catch them, but some of course carry on lying with a bent engager not wanting to pay employers national insurance and accrue employment rights for staff.

What you say about the figures is, of course, completely factually correct (not always the case on this thread :wink:

).

However, you must be aware of the millions of working people, who cannot take advantage of the way our tax system is set up and pay themselves a salary of £ 8,628 avoiding income tax completely and then taking the remaining profit of £33,511 in dividends.

As we are both aware, it's only people on PAYE (generally the less well off and particularly public sector) who actually pay the full tax on their income to support Education, NHS, Pensions and the rest of Government spending etc etc.

There are large numbers of people who set up businesses, take risks, employ staff etc, who you believe should be rewarded for that risk by paying less tax on their income than those on PAYE and I can see that argument. I set up, ran and owned a few SMEs, so understand the pressures and risks, but always took my full salary PAYE, even before the Tories cut the top rate as I thought I should contribute fully and pay tax on the income I earned. (Mug or Saint ?)

However, I accept my view maybe coloured by the industry I worked in (Tecnology), where huge numbers, particularly those earning 'significant' amounts, had set themselves up as limited companies solely for the tax benefits. (Pre and Post IR35).

From my experience, for every 'small businessmen/family' that will be out of pocket, there will be at least an equal number of individuals being taxed on the income they have avoided paying up to now, simply by using the 'advantages' of the current tax system.

Of course this all pales into insignificance when compared to multinationals tax avoidance but that's another issue.

Bold Seagull · Nov 22, 2019

wellquickwoody said:
Possibly the most ridiculous comment that I have ever had the misfortune to read on here. I had you down as an ideological idiot before, now I will just stick with a complete fxxking idiot.

Coming from you, delighted with that response. Thank you. :thumbsup:

beorhthelm · Nov 22, 2019

Bold Seagull said:
That's politics.

Utter bobbins is probably right.

i had a longer missive, went for brevity at cost of nuance. fitting with the age of sound bite politics.

CHAPPERS · Nov 22, 2019

How anyone can vote for the Tories after Gove and Patel's comments of the last couple of days is entirely beyond me. They are a ****ing disgrace.

theonlymikey · Nov 22, 2019

https://twitter.com/WhelanKarl/status/1197645057752543233?s=19

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Bold Seagull · Nov 22, 2019

Guinness Boy said:
In fact, thinking about it further, I'll give you a specific example. If Rory Stewart had won the leadership contest instead of Boris I'd be voting Tory this time round. I've often heard it said "he's not really a Tory" and thanks to their lurch to the right he no longer is, but it's exactly the same thing you hear people with intransigent views say about the likes of Blair or (nearer home) Warren Morgan (red tories, not really Labour), just because they're prepared to compromise.

I have no issue with someone who's politics is around the centre ground. A softer Tory approach as appealing to them as a voter as a Blair-like Labour or Libs. It is a fair approach to politics that between 2 sets of views is an area that can be full of compromise. My point was that believing that and being able to vote around that premise is no different to being passionate about politics to the left or right. A person of the right has no real alternative other than to vote Tory, the same as someone of the left has little option than Labour - other than Scotland of course where the SNP not only have independence as a cornerstone of their existence, but they are more left of Labour giving traditional Scottish socialists a choice, hence the split vote. Could have happened with the Brexit Party and Tories in England, but that deal has been done.

WATFORD zero · Nov 22, 2019

CHAPPERS said:
How anyone can vote for the Tories after Gove and Patel's comments of the last couple of days is entirely beyond me. They are a ****ing disgrace.

At a guess, because if your decision is visceral, rather than logical or factual, then no amount of logic or facts will reverse it

Bold Seagull · Nov 22, 2019

beorhthelm said:
i had a longer missive, went for brevity at cost of nuance. fitting with the age of sound bite politics.

There was nuance in what I said as further explained to Guinness Boy. It wasn't a criticism of the centre ground. :wink:

wellquickwoody · Nov 22, 2019

Labour have added another one........

Free school meals for ALL kids

You really couldn’t make this up.

#whereisthemoney

Bold Seagull · Nov 22, 2019

A1X said:
[TWEET]1197786344594006016[/TWEET]

wellquickwoody said:
Labour have added another one........

Free school meals for ALL kids

You really couldn’t make this up.

#whereisthemoney

Question should be, why hasn't there been more money to spend?

daveinplzen · Nov 22, 2019

wellquickwoody said:
Labour have added another one........

Free school meals for ALL kids

You really couldn’t make this up.

#whereisthemoney

Isnt that just a proposal from Scottish Labour?

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