[Politics] Scotland / England Border

vegster · Oct 16, 2019

Triggaaar said:
Sure, but how long after they vote will you say we don't know again?

They are indeed the biggest party, but they got less than half the vote. It's also worth noting that they didn't use to get that much of the vote, and as a voter you could be forgiven for thinking post referendum that you could vote for them for other reasons, as the subject of independence had already been settled.

I think that it will never be settled until they are out, They may well want to come back after a few years or tie up some special relationship deal, who knows. But remember that if the Brexit vote had been 52%-48% in favour of Remain, Farage said he would have simply kept on campaigning til he got the result he wanted. I think Scottish Independence is exactly the same, the genie is out of the bottle and cannot be put back.

JC Footy Genius · Oct 16, 2019

Only one poll since early 2017 was in favour of leaving and I doubt a majority of the people in Scotland would vote to leave an incredibly successful 300 + year-old union which subsidises it, where it sends 60% of its exports, has the third largest representation in the Uk parliament just to try to rejoin a problematic 40 year old union where they only send 18% of exports and would be just one of many small nations following in the wake of Germany and France.

Triggaaar · Oct 16, 2019

vegster said:
I think that it will never be settled until they are out

Well it appeared to be settled, as during the referendum all sides said this a one off vote and wouldn't be repeated.

They may well want to come back after a few years or tie up some special relationship deal, who knows.

Right, so even if they left it wouldn't be settled.

But remember that if the Brexit vote had been 52%-48% in favour of Remain, Farage said he would have simply kept on campaigning til he got the result he wanted. I think Scottish Independence is exactly the same, the genie is out of the bottle and cannot be put back.

I don't think it's a genie out of the bottle thing. The SNP would have campaigned forever if they hadn't had a referendum, as would Farage if he hadn't. They had referendums, and they'd have both continued to campaign if they'd lost. But some people wanting to campaign doesn't mean these things have to happen, or that we need repeated referendums.

beorhthelm · Oct 16, 2019

Pavilionaire said:
2) I can't see the rest of the UK foisting half of the UK debt on Scotland were it to leave. It might be a hard sell especially when the ERG have said let's leave the EU without paying our £39 billion divorce bill, no to to mention the UK doing very well out of Scottish North Sea Oil for the last 50-odd years.

the poster meant their deficit, they'll have to borrow £13bn for themselves. though interesting point, they would be expected to pick up some of the national debt too.

vegster · Oct 16, 2019

Triggaaar said:
Well it appeared to be settled, as during the referendum all sides said this a one off vote and wouldn't be repeated.

Right, so even if they left it wouldn't be settled.

I don't think it's a genie out of the bottle thing. The SNP would have campaigned forever if they hadn't had a referendum, as would Farage if he hadn't. They had referendums, and they'd have both continued to campaign if they'd lost. But some people wanting to campaign doesn't mean these things have to happen, or that we need repeated referendums.

It's all about momentum and the changing face of the world and alliances. A lot of Scots want to go it alone, if they do and it goes tits up they will try to come back in some kind of alliance. If it all works out they will be thumbing their noses at us, but the one thing you can't say is that it will never happen. Old alliances and regions blocked together will eventually separate, it's the way of things. Think of all the separatist regions in Spain and eastern Europe, there is also simmering resentment between the Flemish north of Belgium and the Walloons in the south of Belgium, and, If you don't have referendums you get terrorism.

You may even get terrorism after referendums, have you noticed the increasingly less veiled threats on the Brexit thread ? Very difficult to see where it ends but from a starting point of 45% of Scots wanting independence to having a majority wanting out is not a great swing.

Hampster Gull · Oct 16, 2019

lawros left foot said:
If the EU is as vindictive and power hungry as Farage, Johnson, Rees- Mogg would have us believe, they would glory in having an independent Scotland back in the fold,if only to thumb their noses at England and it's remaining vassal state,Wales.

I would be stunned if an independent Scotland weren’t fast tracked. The EU have to show a country is better off in than out. Losing NI by all but name and then Scotland (whilst making us suffer during a 8 year trade negotiation) more than does that

Harry Wilson's tackle · Oct 16, 2019

Triggaaar said:
No it isn't.

Yes it bloody well is.

"The United Kingdom (UK) comprises four countries: England, Scotland, and Wales (which collectively make up Great Britain) and Northern Ireland (which is variously described as a country, province or region)."

Doonhamer7 · Oct 16, 2019

It is depressing to read the English opinion on what we Scots want. I’ll put the case to you when working back home about 10years ago an English colleague said to me it’s only when you live in Scotland do you really understand why the Scots don’t like the English and it’s not to do with the individuals (he had no problems) but the portrayal by the press (predominantly London based)and the politicians (oh! London based) of an English biased mentality and no understanding of our culture, values, laws, religion. He said if he lived up here long time then even he’d dislike his own kind (hatred us only for those that cannot control their own emotions).

I read these predominantly SE England biased comments with real sadness which shows a cultural lack of understanding. Most of us like the idea of independence (the Braveheart mentality) but we are canny enough to know we were better economically better off within the UK within the EU so we rattled a few cages and decided not to change, probably a wise move at the time. The Brexit vote has changed so much, whether it is right or wrong to remain or leave it has changed a lot of my countrymen‘s perspective on the long term viability of being part of the UK. Many of my Unionist friends would seriously now consider voting Yes. The loss of Ruth Davison also massively weakens the Conservative and Unionist Party which doesn’t help when we will have even more stereo typical Etonians trying to persuade us to stay (Johnson and Rees Mogg are that bad that they would be better replaced by Thatcher and Edward Longshanks..... yes it would be that bad)

The logic being thrown about economics is just like what the Brexiteers call ‘project fear’. The more you do it the more it pisses us off. As our motto states ‘no one proves me with impunity’.

Hampster Gull · Oct 16, 2019

JC Footy Genius said:
Only one poll since early 2017 was in favour of leaving and I doubt a majority of the people in Scotland would vote to leave an incredibly successful 300 + year-old union which subsidises it, where it sends 60% of its exports, has the third largest representation in the Uk parliament just to try to rejoin a problematic 40 year old union where they only send 18% of exports and would be just one of many small nations following in the wake of Germany and France.

It won’t be a vote on economics but of heart. You know that, you’re not stupid. And the divisive issue has been Brexit, the way the hard right have forced through a divisive win lose exit approach. You’ve doomed the Union, live with it

Triggaaar · Oct 16, 2019

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Yes it bloody well is.

It really isn't.

"The United Kingdom (UK) comprises four countries: England, Scotland, and Wales (which collectively make up Great Britain) and Northern Ireland (which is variously described as a country, province or region)."

Incorrect.

B-right-on · Oct 16, 2019

Hampster Gull said:
I would be stunned if an independent Scotland weren’t fast tracked. The EU have to show a country is better off in than out. Losing NI by all but name and then Scotland (whilst making us suffer during a 8 year trade negotiation) more than does that

There are other issues for EU member states if they are seen to be supporting Scotland separating from the UK. Spain /Catalonia being the most hotly contested at the moment but could be followed by many other regions who would like an independent state from their current country.

Hampster Gull · Oct 16, 2019

B-right-on said:
There are other issues for EU member states if they are seen to be supporting Scotland separating from the UK. Spain /Catalonia being the most hotly contested at the moment but could be followed by many other regions who would like an independent state from their current country.

Fair point but for me the difference in this scenario is the U.K. is outside the EU and Scotland has voted independence. I don’t see a read across to Spain where their constitution outlaws the breakup of the country so their will be no vote etc. And they won’t leave the EU anytime soon. And Scotland isn’t a region, its a country.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Oct 16, 2019

Triggaaar said:
It really isn't.

Incorrect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminology_of_the_British_Isles

"England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are the four countries of the United Kingdom, though they are also referred to, especially in sporting contexts, as the home nations of the United Kingdom."

Why you bothered to pick up on this one word in a post that was not about semantics is beyond me. Anyway, whatevs.

Triggaaar · Oct 16, 2019

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
"England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are the four countries of the United Kingdom

That's wrong.

Why you bothered to pick up on this one word in a post that was not about semantics is beyond me. Anyway, whatevs.

It wasn't meant to cause offence. Simples.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Oct 16, 2019

Triggaaar said:
That's wrong.

It wasn't meant to cause offence. Simples.

OK, so are you going to tell me what sort of thing Scotland is, then, or what? I'm beginning to get a bit interested, now.

perseus · Oct 16, 2019

All is dreich north of the Wall

DavidinSouthampton said:
WHAT makes people think the EU would NOT want Scotland back. It is a mutually supportive organisation where countries are going to get excluded because of their human rights records or things like that. It is not about whether they would be net contributors or whatever.

Bring back the seven kingdoms of Saxon times

Simster · Oct 16, 2019

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
[emoji38]ol: OK, so are you going to tell me what sort of thing Scotland is, then, or what? I'm beginning to get a bit interested, now.

Whether Scotland is a country or a nation or a region simply depends on your definition of those words. I'm fairly sure there is no authoritative definition of any of them. I too would be curious to know why Triggaaar has decided your definition is unquestionably wrong because I am fairly confident that it isn't.

Triggaaar · Oct 16, 2019

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
OK, so are you going to tell me what sort of thing Scotland is, then, or what? I'm beginning to get a bit interested, now.

Well I appreciate there are people that won't accept this, but a country is a specific thing. Generally, a country has specific things - off the top of my head:

Sovereignty - control of it's own borders. The nations within the UK have no power to refuse entry to people from the other nations within the UK. The UK has the power to refuse entry to people in the EU, by changing our laws (leaving the EU). But the whole Scottish government could not vote to prevent you or me waltzing into Scotland any time we like.
Currency - the nations in the UK cannot control their own individual currency without the say of the rest of the nations (countries within the EU have joined the Euro, but they do have the power to leave it should they wish).
Government - the nations in the UK don't have their own governments with full authority - England doesn't have it's own government at all, so Scotland is closer to being a country than England is.
Army - a country would usually have its own army.
Recognition - part of being a country is being recognised as such by other countries. Our home nations don't have their own seat at the UN. The UK does, because the UK is a country. Sadly, football teams don't count as the definition of a country.

The very fact that Scotland needs to ask the UK for permission to vote on independence is an indication that they're not a country. No country in the world needs permission from someone else on matters like that. If Scotland were given the vote again, and they voted for independence, and went through with it (following our Brexit like trade talks), they would then be a country. England still wouldn't.

Triggaaar · Oct 16, 2019

Simster said:
I too would be curious to know why Triggaaar has decided your definition is unquestionably wrong

What was Harry's definition? He posted something that said they were countries, but that was nothing about a definition of what a country is.

clapham_gull · Oct 16, 2019

B-right-on said:
There are other issues for EU member states if they are seen to be supporting Scotland separating from the UK. Spain /Catalonia being the most hotly contested at the moment but could be followed by many other regions who would like an independent state from their current country.

I think they are over that to be honest. The EU now views Scotland as a region that has been thrown out against its will.

The other countries will simply bully Spain to allow them back in.

Brexit has changed everything regarding the way Scotland is viewed by the EU and talks are already happening behind the scenes.

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