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  1. #71
    Not seen such Bravery! Blue Valkyrie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perkino View Post
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    I'd like to know how this worked with our recent appointment. Obviously once we sacked CH we identified Potter as an excellent replacement, we pursued him and paid a release fee to Swansea City for his services. Did we have to interview other candidates? One specifically being from the BAME community? Many clubs have a replacement in mind when they sack a manager
    Isn't the rule a Football League one, not PL ?
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    • #72
      Harry Wilson's Tackle Harry Wilson's tackle's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Triggaaar View Post
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      Exactly. Club decides well in advance whom they want to appoint, so they contact that person and reach agreement. They just have to say 'hold on, we can't officially name you as manager until we've found some BAME candidate that we have to interview, before rejecting them through no fault of their own'. What a farce.
      It isn't quite like that.

      This is about dealing with unconscious bias, not racism. Of course no racist board will appoint a BAME manager no matter how many apply. But the supposition is that such boards are a thing of the past (Jack Hayward RIP), and that if BAME managers don't get interviewed after applying it is due to unconscious bias (or ignorance as it used to be called - a bit like how your old nan used to talk about LGBT folk and black people, never having ever knowingly met or spoken to one).

      This is nowhere near as onerous as some appear to think. The idea is that if BAME applicants apply at least one must be interviewed. Given that boards are not racists, just burdoned with unconscious bias, the expectation is that if a BAME candidate happened to be the best performer on interview, he or she (ha ha, just kidding) would get the job.

      OK so what about a situation where the board have already identified their target? Surely, by law, them must advertise the job and interview. It is the same in every walk of life, isn't it? OK, the board may have already identified their leading candidate, but there is a chance another person they interview may blow them away.

      So this is where I have a problem. What is the evidence any club advertises and interviews at all? How many people were interviewed after CH was sacked? Can anyone post the job ad? How many were interviewed? Do clubs like us act illegally, then, or is it that it was always OK to interview just the one guy, and now they will have to interview two (the one they want plus a BAME guy if the one they want isn't BAME)? One thing this will do is slow up the appointment process - getting a guy in as quickly as we got Harry Potter in will be impossible. It will take weeks.

      I don't have any problem with the Rooney rule on the face of it, but it seems to me like it is being introduced here a bit like Cameron set up the Brexit vote.

      Edit I see @Perkino has raised similar issues above
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0Q93v7hGZA
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    • #73
      Harry Wilson's Tackle Harry Wilson's tackle's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by GT49er View Post
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      ....and more to the point, if we'd interviewed, say, Paul Ince and Sol Campbell as well as Potter {who we have been 'watching' for a long time) would the outcome have been any different?
      It may have been, it may not. But the value of interviewing other candidates is logical and fair and is explained in my post above.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0Q93v7hGZA
      Glenn Murray's a wizzard, he wears a wizzard's hat, And when he get's his cock out, he says 'I'll score with that'
      He scores them with his left ball, he scores them with his right. And then he scores one with his arse, he's ****ing dynamite
    • #74
      Members Super Steve Earle's Avatar
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      Where does this all end. Paul Ince is probably best described as past his use by date in management terms. But what if he applies for 5 jobs and gets 5 interviews without getting the job. Has he been discriminated against or has the club simply appointed their view of the best person for the job? Are there sanctions against the 5 clubs? Do they have to justify their choice to a BAME panel of experts? Does a 6th club feel under extra pressure to appoint Mr Ince for fear of the venom of Barnes, Rose and others?
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    • #75
      Members Stat Brother's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Super Steve Earle View Post
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      Where does this all end.
      Ideally when the managers are more representative of the former players from which they have been taken.



      I hope this helps.
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    • #76
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      Personally with the financial rewards to be gained from success I think the likelihood of a talented manager not being given a job due to skin colour is dubious. Further to that, if a club does have a bias against BAME individuals surely they will simply not appoint the BAME candidate that they have been forced to interview so it seems like this will solve nothing.
    • #77
      Devil's Advocate (p/t)
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      Quote Originally Posted by sjamesb3466 View Post
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      Personally with the financial rewards to be gained from success I think the likelihood of a talented manager not being given a job due to skin colour is dubious. Further to that, if a club does have a bias against BAME individuals surely they will simply not appoint the BAME candidate that they have been forced to interview so it seems like this will solve nothing.
      This goes back to my exchange of points with TwoChoices. Whether the problem is racist owners or subconscious bias. One of two things is going on:

      1) Clubs/Owners/CEOs are consciously racist. They will go through the process of interviewing BAME applicants, then give the job to a white manager (even if it means passing on a better manager because he is BAME). Nothing changes, there's still poor representation in management roles, and the law has had no impact. Nothing good happens, nothing bad happens (as in nothing directly related to the law being implemented, obviously if a great managerial candidate misses out on a job because he is BAME and the interviewers are racist, that's bad, but it's not the fault of the law)

      2) Clus/Owners/CEOs are subconscious biased. They don't consider BAME applicants as candidates because they've been poisoned by systemic attitudes, the reducing of BAME players to physical aspects of speed, power, etc, while the white players are intelligent, have vision and nous. This law forces them to look at the applicant list, pick the best BAME candidate(s) to sit down with (along with as many white applicants as they like). It gives the BAME manager a chance they wouldn't have had before - the opportunity to show that they are, in fact, the best candidate. In this instance the law has improved representation, improved recruitment for clubs, and has had a positive impact on all except the managers who only got the job because the better candidate didn't get an invite to the interview process.

      Either the Rooney rule helps as intended, or it has no impact despite its good intentions. So why oppose it?
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    • #78
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      Quote Originally Posted by ATFC Seagull View Post
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      Two things on this:

      One, it's worked in the NFL, despite facing all the same initial skepticism we're seeing here.

      Two, the majority of BAME coaches support it, so I understand. It's their time that people are claiming is going to be "wasted". They don't have a problem.
      I was going to ask this, as someone that does not watch or follow NFL I am interested to know if it has been successful. If it has, then it seems a good model to follow.
    • #79
      Members Stat Brother's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Wilko View Post
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      I was going to ask this, as someone that does not watch or follow NFL I am interested to know if it has been successful. If it has, then it seems a good model to follow.
      Having more black coaches has opened up another can of worms (unsurprisingly)

      Black coaches are now seen as defensive.
      While white ones are offensive.

      To put it very bluntly, the black coaches are the brawn compared to white coaches brains.
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