[Football] Jonathan Wilson's article on Man City cup final.

Mellor 3 Ward 4 · May 20, 2019

I hope the big 6 disappear into their utopia of a European Super League, along with PSG, Bayern, Barca, Real Madrid etc...

Leave the PL to the rest of us.

No promotion/Relegation.

Let's see how long the stadiums remain full for and how many fans bother with travelling away after a coupe of seasons.

BNthree · May 20, 2019

Ken Early in the Irish Times with a similar article:

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/so...bought-and-they-re-paying-the-price-1.3897613

Sussex Nomad · May 20, 2019

studio150 said:
2015 Arsenal 4 Villa 0
1994 Utd 4 Chelsea 0
1983 Utd 4 Brighton 0

These types of results happen once every so often, but it is clearly not evidence for a Super League, particularly given only City of the top 6 reached the semi finals.

While the top 6 are strong, (other than Liverpool) they have all lost PL games this season to teams outside of the top 6.

I went to the 83 and 94 cup finals - got a freebie in 94 when I was secretary of Angmering FC. Who'd have thunk I'd see two drubbings.

Hamilton · May 20, 2019

Peter Ward said:
Wilson's article in the Guardian makes the case that the wealth created superiority of clubs like Man City has created such an unbalanced playing field that there is no longer any true competition at top level football. On the 6-0 slaughter of Watford he argues that ' In terms of competitiveness, you may as well have placed a yellow-and-black blancmange in the middle of the pitch and smashed it with a sky blue oar'. 'Watching Pep Guardiola’s side dismantle their opponents in the FA Cup final was gruesome and reflective of a trend across Europe that suggests the time has come for a super league'.

'But Saturday was miserable, the traditional showpiece of the English season reduced to a grim parade, devoid of any drama, there to satisfy the propaganda wing of a faraway regime. Perhaps some people enjoy watching eviscerations like this: Romans, after all, flocked to the Colosseum for fixtures between lions and Christians that were only marginally less one-sided than this. But even City fans did not seem particularly enthused, grumbling on the underground about a fifth trip to Wembley this season and cheering goals with the weary satisfaction that used to be reserved for a top-flight team battering a minnow in the third round.'

Do you agree?

100% agree.

Many years ago, faced with peak oil, the UAE set out a strategy to buy cultural and sporting assets. It recognised that as its oil power waned, it would one day need to exert influence elsewhere. As well as purchasing property and assets, it also needed acceptability and so the cricket, F1, Guggenheim and Premier League fell under its gaze.

Now, a rich Sheikh has got to put the Premier League on his wall and the result is that domestic football has lost any slim chance it may have once had to live the dream that the likes of Forest, Villa, Everton, Leeds, Blackburn, Wolves or any other club might win the league.

The authorities are unable to take on the money men - they simply don't have the will or even the means. And so, let's let them form their super league. The real losers will be the grassroots fans of the big 6. I really don't believe Liverpool supporters will relish not being able to play against English and Welsh teams and they would probably fight it hard, as would Spurs, Man U and Chelsea. Arsenal are already lost to corporate fans. As for City - I really used to like them, but the writing was on the wall for them the second the UAE rode into town.

I've no doubt that once Pep has gone things might change, but that is not in the UAE plan. They want a European Super League and they won't stop until they get it. And Abramovich, the Glasers and Levy will all happily fall in line.

BHA Haywards Heath · May 20, 2019

Jonathan Wilson has been making this point for quite a while on Football Weekly, and it is pretty convincing. It's not so much that the league is dominated by the big clubs, it has been for ages. It's more that we are still fed this myth that anyone can beat anyone, that the big teams will have a competitive game wherever they go. It's just not true. Wilson has used the possession statistic that in 2003-2004 there were 11 games in which one team had 65% possession or more. In 2016-2017 it was 94 games. (can't be bothered to find the statistics for this season but I would imagine that number has increased) While this can be put down to changes in playing styles and other factors, I think it's a pretty convincing example that these are really not competitive matches anymore, and they are certainly not suggestive of the Best League on Earth. Obviously, the main advantage that the Premier League has is that there are 6 teams rather than just 2 or 3 like Spain etc.

Good Wilson article on this:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2018/jan/04/premier-league-possession-manchester-city

Gritt23 · May 20, 2019

Mellor 3 Ward 4 said:
I hope the big 6 disappear into their utopia of a European Super League, along with PSG, Bayern, Barca, Real Madrid etc...

Leave the PL to the rest of us.

No promotion/Relegation.

Let's see how long the stadiums remain full for and how many fans bother with travelling away after a coupe of seasons.

Exacty right! What is that League like if two teams are clear a couple of months into the season?

No historic, domestic rivalry to "spice" up a game, just teams playing out the nonsense of a mid-table Chelsea vs Atletico Madrid clash, to see who can climb to 8th. Yawn fecking city.

Even if a team (or two) hasn't run away with it early, the reality is that the % of games where there is absolutely nothing to play for will be astonishing. And between two teams that couldn't care less about each other, where you don't even have a fan of the other team in the office at work to bring a bit of banter to proceedings.

Unless it's wrapped up in you Sky package and you can't exclude paying for it, then I just don't see that it will be a commercial success. It will crash and burn in 5 years, and then they try to come back to their domestic leagues with their tails between their legs.

Bring. It. ON.

Mackenzie · May 20, 2019

Hamilton said:
100% agree.

Many years ago, faced with peak oil, the UAE set out a strategy to buy cultural and sporting assets. It recognised that as its oil power waned, it would one day need to exert influence elsewhere. As well as purchasing property and assets, it also needed acceptability and so the cricket, F1, Guggenheim and Premier League fell under its gaze.

Now, a rich Sheikh has got to put the Premier League on his wall and the result is that domestic football has lost any slim chance it may have once had to live the dream that the likes of Forest, Villa, Everton, Leeds, Blackburn, Wolves or any other club might win the league.

The authorities are unable to take on the money men - they simply don't have the will or even the means. And so, let's let them form their super league. The real losers will be the grassroots fans of the big 6. I really don't believe Liverpool supporters will relish not being able to play against English and Welsh teams and they would probably fight it hard, as would Spurs, Man U and Chelsea. Arsenal are already lost to corporate fans. As for City - I really used to like them, but the writing was on the wall for them the second the UAE rode into town.

I've no doubt that once Pep has gone things might change, but that is not in the UAE plan. They want a European Super League and they won't stop until they get it. And Abramovich, the Glasers and Levy will all happily fall in line.

Away matches will be a bit tricky/expensive.

Gritt23 · May 20, 2019

BHA Haywards Heath said:
Jonathan Wilson has been making this point for quite a while on Football Weekly, and it is pretty convincing. It's not so much that the league is dominated by the big clubs, it has been for ages. It's more that we are still fed this myth that anyone can beat anyone, that the big teams will have a competitive game wherever they go. It's just not true. Wilson has used the possession statistic that in 2003-2004 there were 11 games in which one team had 65% possession or more. In 2016-2017 it was 94 games. (can't be bothered to find the statistics for this season but I would imagine that number has increased) While this can be put down to changes in playing styles and other factors, I think it's a pretty convincing example that these are really not competitive matches anymore, and they are certainly not suggestive of the Best League on Earth. Obviously, the main advantage that the Premier League has is that there are 6 teams rather than just 2 or 3 like Spain etc.

Good Wilson article on this:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2018/jan/04/premier-league-possession-manchester-city

The other stat he uses is about games dominated by 70% possession or more. In the first 3 years of OPTA Stats (15 years ago) there were 3 games where a team had 70%+ possession. The last 2 seasons it's been over 60 games per season. So, in 15 years that has gone from 1 game per season, to 1 game in every 6.

Hamilton · May 20, 2019

We already have our League...

https://twitter.com/other14the

Mellor 3 Ward 4 · May 20, 2019

Mellor 3 Ward 4 said:
I hope the big 6 disappear into their utopia of a European Super League, along with PSG, Bayern, Barca, Real Madrid etc...

Leave the PL to the rest of us.

No promotion/Relegation.

Let's see how long the stadiums remain full for and how many fans bother with travelling away after a coupe of seasons.

When I refer to 'no promotion/relegation' I am of course referring to the European Super League - no the Premier League.

cyberleech · May 20, 2019

Its been a thesis from JW all season. If you listen to Guardian Football Weekly podcast, he will often make the same point. Its backed up by the stats, about 67 premier league games where one team had more than 75% posession. Which is an awful game to watch for the supporters of the 25%. (eg our game away at Spurs).

Its a valid argument, but whether a super league is the answer, I'm not sure. If these clubs complied with the FFP rules, we may have a more competitive league. But they seem to get around it. (Wolves, I'm looking at you.)

Until the EPL hits some kind of crisis, loses Sky money for example, nothing will change.

Bry Nylon · May 20, 2019

BNthree said:
Ken Early in the Irish Times with a similar article:

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/so...bought-and-they-re-paying-the-price-1.3897613

View attachment 109896

Love this line from that article:

"Pep looked less like a happy football coach watching his side make history and more like an anguished scientist whose prototype civil defence robot has just run amok at a trade show, slaughtering several bystanders."

:lolol:

Questions · May 20, 2019

So everyone thinks that City's dominance is here for ever. I don't.

Weststander · May 20, 2019

Questions said:
So everyone thinks that City's dominance is here for ever. I don't.

It will end when Spuds or ManU are taken over by a multi billionaire willing to pump in countless £100m’s of their own money on players they otherwise could not afford, giving a squad of 25 proven internationals, etc. (That’s on top of the huge broadcasting income the top 6 receive). To get around the laws of governing bodies, the cash injections will have to come from overseas companies connected to the owners as ‘sponsorship’, but pretending to be unconnected companies.

An arms race on spending for trophies.

Until that day, ManC will have the league sown up. Liverpool and Spurs IMHO won’t repeat their recent near misses, they haven’t the 25 man squads to cover for injuries.

BBassic · May 20, 2019

Bry Nylon said:
Love this line from that article:

"Pep looked less like a happy football coach watching his side make history and more like an anguished scientist whose prototype civil defence robot has just run amok at a trade show, slaughtering several bystanders."

I also enjoyed:

"It’s time to accept that oil-funded success and mass popularity are never going to go together. It’s as though City are perched on the back of a dragon, peering down at a sullen populace, wondering incredulously why they are not loved. Shouldn’t it be obvious?"

Questions · May 20, 2019

Weststander said:
It will end when Spuds or ManU are taken over by a multi billionaire willing to pump in countless £100m’s of their own money on players they otherwise could not afford, giving a squad of 25 proven internationals, etc. (That’s on top of the huge broadcasting income the top 6 receive). To get around the laws of governing bodies, the cash injections will have to come from overseas companies connected to the owners as ‘sponsorship’, but pretending to be unconnected companies.

An arms race on spending for trophies.

Until that day, ManC will have the league sown up. Liverpool and Spurs IMHO won’t repeat their recent near misses, they haven’t the 25 man squads to cover for injuries.

Thus it has always been so. Blackburn anyone ?

Weststander · May 20, 2019

Questions said:
Thus it has always been so. Blackburn anyone ?

But they weren’t able to win cups, back to back leagues and their very brief foray into the CL ended with a fight between Le Saux and Batty.

Questions · May 20, 2019

Weststander said:
But they weren’t able to win cups, back to back leagues and their very brief foray into the CL ended with a fight between Le Saux and Batty.

They won as many Champions League finals as Man City have then. Of course I understand your point but it just needs FFP to be tightened ( maybe this is the flaw in my argument) and then it can be a slightly more level playing field. You can’t stop what’s happening though.

Pavilionaire · May 20, 2019

Acker79 said:
We may not get another Leicester, but we could get more Burnley's and Wolves - smaller teams getting into Europe and gaining extra finances, to give themselves a chance of becoming challengers to the big six without an oligarch, maybe sneak into the top four at the expense of one of the established team who will see some drop in finance at least for a season. If it happens often enough it could open up a bit more competitiveness. Or could just pull teams out of the 'big six' making it a 'big three' and the rest...

Burnley finished 7th, got into Europe and it killed their league season. They showed some guts in the second half to stay clear of the bottom three but at what price? They've had the longest season of any club, they must be knackered and the bookies now have them third favourites for relegation in 2019/20.

It almost goes without saying Wolves will finish 2019/20 lower than the 7th place they got in 2018/19 because of the weekly grind of the Europa League.

The only clubs that can make the Europa League work are the clubs in 5th and 6th. If Arsenal lose that final to Chelsea and Spurs beat Liverpool then Arsenal will have a real job on their hands getting back into the Top 4.

Happy Exile · May 20, 2019

When one side is certain of winning it stops being sport. I've said this in another thread but I don't see what's enjoyable about supporting a team where results are a foregone conclusion. If it was down to developing local talent then there's some pride in that and connection to the team but buying it in, however much you wrap it up in illusory history it's as real as digital flags to make up for the lack of passion that sees blokes sewing into the early hours to show their support. You can create an artifice but it just highlights the absence of genuine support that'll be there whatever the future.

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[Football] Jonathan Wilson's article on Man City cup final.

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