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  1. #51
    Members Not Andy Naylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guinness Boy View Post
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    There was a cracking article posted on here rebutting Roy Keane's attack on the Man U players, but really analysing the first Liverpool goal against Huddersfield that they scored from Huddersfield kicking off. The front three close down keeper and the two "spread wide" defenders from a back pass, trying to force it central and the CMs wait to pounce when it is. We don't do that. Now, that's not our tactics, it's Klopp’s but we simply do not have the players to do it, given the front three had the pace-free Murray in the middle of it. If you set (say) Andone, Izqueirdo and Ali J (slower than we'd like but not Murray-esque) as your front three you could press in a similar way. But to do that the players would have to not only be match fit but much fitter than they've looked.

    I don't know what your knowledge of PL clubs has told you but anecdotally I've read people say Klopp's fitness regimes can break some players. However, I suspect, because of the money available, that they try to recruit players that are naturally towards the top end of fitness for the league. We may not be able to afford that - or it may not be a definable bit of data that the analysts can use.

    Of course, if you spend your days off in a bar.........
    Pochettino's players used to complain about the training and said you needed three lungs to do what he asked. Southampton's players were shocked by the intensity of the training and in MP's early days at Tottenham they tended to fade late in games because they were all so shattered. But he and they persevered, and players who couldn't cut it left.

    But I've said before that an all-out high-pressing game wouldn't suit our present squad because of our lack of pace further back. Our back four are too slow to risk pushing up as high as some other teams' defenders can, so there would be gaps between our lines for the better teams to exploit.
    England are still the only team to have won the World Cup wearing red shirts.

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    • #52
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      Quote Originally Posted by The Tactician View Post
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      I’ve written an opinion piece/ tactical breakdown of the Newcastle game -discussing Hughton’s dismissal and why in Bloom’s eyes he was no longer the man to carry us forward.



      You can find the whole thing HERE: https://www.northstandchat.com/conte...-1-1-Newcastle
      Well written tho I would probably disagree with a number of assumptions and possibly some conclusions.

      The only thing I’d really like to say is I hope our next manager doesn’t regard playing 2 up front as recklessly attacking, it can be a very solid defensive formation if the front 2 work hard defending from the front either in a 3 5 2 or the default 4 4 2. I think Hughton’s vision of deep defending didn’t work purely from a defensive angle and it cost him his job
      "I have been in professional football since I was 16 - that's 33 years this summer. I have seen and done it all. In Brighton, I thought that I had found a club that sat outside the norm. People who love their club but are realistic about their club's prospects in dire circumstances. That appealed to me. That is what I call true loyalty. Supporting the club as you have done through the hard times. I am prepared to be here through these hard times and to develop a squad as I have started to do in preparation for the day that we all move to a new stadium at Falmer. I need your support, patience and understanding in the long-term because there is no quick fix. I hope you will continue to give me that opportunity." Mark McGhee, 17th April 2006
    • #53
      Members Weststander's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Whitley Bayster View Post
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      That's a good read. That first half was the turning point for me as well. Having travelled the length of the country to be there I couldn't believe what I was watching. The absurdity of that starting eleven and the performance that followed was the trigger for me losing my faith in Hughton. In fact very specifically it was that crap free kick in the first minute when we had the chance of an early shot on goal. A chance to get the crowd up and maybe even score and it was passed sideways. A mis placed pass followed and Newcastle counter attacked. It looked like they were trying a training ground set piece but whatever it was it was dreadfully executed and the first half didn't get any better. Hughton has been fabulous for us and I will always hold him in very high regard but Bloom has made the right decision. Would we rather grind out another season of hanging in there and hoping for the odd goal win or actually try and progress, If we fail trying so be it. At least we went for it
      I forgot about that embarrassing free-kick routine, it changed the feel to the match in a second, both on field and in the previously buoyant stands. Knowing what we know know now (post Cardiff debacle), I wonder what was going through TB’s mind? “Another nail in the coffin”.
    • #54
      Mod writer Guinness Boy's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Not Andy Naylor View Post
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      Pochettino's players used to complain about the training and said you needed three lungs to do what he asked. Southampton's players were shocked by the intensity of the training and in MP's early days at Tottenham they tended to fade late in games because they were all so shattered. But he and they persevered, and players who couldn't cut it left.

      But I've said before that an all-out high-pressing game wouldn't suit our present squad because of our lack of pace further back. Our back four are too slow to risk pushing up as high as some other teams' defenders can, so there would be gaps between our lines for the better teams to exploit.
      Yes, very good point. We are very slow down the spine, i.e. Dunk/Duffy, Stephens and Murray. They are all CH players as well so will be interesting what the new bloke does with them. Bernardo looks lightning though and Bong's no slouch. Obviously 38 year old Bruno stops you pushing up though . As for Montoya I genuinely have no idea of his relative pace, given that his postioning is so poor that he regularly gives opponents 10 yard starts.
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    • #55
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      Surely if the players aren't up to the tactics and you can't change all the players then you need to change the tactics to suit the players you have! One of the things I've never understood about Hughton is why we defend corners with 11 men because it just means the opposition can push further forward. And who was the tactical genius that decided the best way to kick off was to just give the opponents the ball!
    • #56
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      Quote Originally Posted by sussex_guy2k2 View Post
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      All fair enough. I was relieved. A better side than Newcastle, who had more to play for, would've taken us apart that first half and made the second irretrievable. He was lucky they'd not done that in my view.

      In terms of my desire for him to go, I think it relates to two simple things. If you're paying to go to football to the extent that you're fully invested in your team, then you want to see results comparative to your seasonal expectations (last year I hoped for survival hence my general happiness, this year I wanted to see progress, which I don't think he's delivered) and if you're not getting results then you need to be watching good football. Ideally you have both, but one without the other is acceptable. We'd had good enough results for our first PL season and a half, but it fell off the cliff in the second half of the season. Couple that with the dour style of football and you're certainly not on to a winner. For me, I'd lost the joy in going to games (and that's coming from someone who enjoyed going to the lower league games for years) and that wasn't going to change much based on a good second half viewing here or there.
      Good post. Every Albion fan in the first season expected and hoped for nothing other than survival. We would have forgiven eveyone and everything for that. Well we got to survive and relatively comfortably in the end.

      Come season two. Would we be stricken with infamous second season syndrome - the answer is yes. Luckily we scraped from relegation by two points. Most fans at the beginning of August 2018 would have been looking some sort of progress albeit a cautious progress. For whatever reason it never materialised. Yes, with fortunate results in November and December, we looked comfortable for a mid-table finish. That all turned to rat shit very, very quickly. The most worrying part was that if the problem was being addressed it wasn’t being solved. We really did have to rely on Cardiff getting fewer points than us by the 12th May.

      Even before the announcement of Chris Hughton leaving I predicted a major sea change in the club’s attitude to performances on the pitch. Hughton’s sacking I definitely did not see coming. I envisaged a much more positive response in our play - front foot attacking style, flexibility, more expansive, more entertaining football, and with Chris still in charge. Hopefully I will be right about those points, who will apply it remains to be seen.
      Just a hedgehog on the motorway of life.
    • #57
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      Quote Originally Posted by The Tactician View Post
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      I don’t really disagree with what you’ve said. My observation has been that without Groß, we’ve been unable to play with an originally favoured 4-4-1-1. (Interestingly however, Hughton began playing 4-3-3 with Groß as one of the midfield 3) The sideways and backwards you allude to is symptomatic of a ‘V shape’ 4-3-3, where the extra midfielder aids ball retention. Without a number 10 to break the line, as an option for that forward pass, the responsibility falls upon the wide players to make things happen. And as you rightly point out, there probably wasn’t enough of a wider philosophy shift - something undoubtedly difficult to do mid-season. To make that system work, you also need intelligent runners from midfield to support the striker, something that did not happen often enough.
      I'll pick up on this, because it's an(other) insightful contribution to what is a fascinating thread. You're well named.
    • #58
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      A fitter and younger squad will give us more options. Too many of our players lack pace :Murray, Bruno, Stephens, Gross, Knocky lack the pace to match the players they are matched up against, so we start every match at a disadvantage.

      Players take an age coming back from injury, with most injuries requiring an operation of some sort. Perhaps our recruitment limitations mean we have to buy “sub standard” players and hope nothing goes wrong.

      I realise this only has a tenuous link to this brilliant analysis but I had to get it off my chest.

      Oh and the free kicks. For me the shambles of the last few would have tipped the balance.
      never forget what Stanley, Archer and Bellotti did
    • #59
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      Quote Originally Posted by Guinness Boy View Post
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      There was a cracking article posted on here rebutting Roy Keane's attack on the Man U players, but really analysing the first Liverpool goal against Huddersfield that they scored from Huddersfield kicking off. The front three close down keeper and the two "spread wide" defenders from a back pass, trying to force it central and the CMs wait to pounce when it is. We don't do that. Now, that's not our tactics, it's Klopp’s but we simply do not have the players to do it, given the front three had the pace-free Murray in the middle of it. If you set (say) Andone, Izqueirdo and Ali J (slower than we'd like but not Murray-esque) as your front three you could press in a similar way. But to do that the players would have to not only be match fit but much fitter than they've looked.

      I don't know what your knowledge of PL clubs has told you but anecdotally I've read people say Klopp's fitness regimes can break some players. However, I suspect, because of the money available, that they try to recruit players that are naturally towards the top end of fitness for the league. We may not be able to afford that - or it may not be a definable bit of data that the analysts can use.

      Of course, if you spend your days off in a bar.........
      Wasn't Firmino one of Klopp's earliest signings? Last time I saw it, he puts in the most intensive sprints of anybody in the PL. All of this does raise the issue of the much vaunted pressing of pre-season that we saw home against United, but I really don't remember witnessing again thereafter. It also raises the point that it's not just technically and tactically but, perhaps even more so, physically that we have bottom six PL players in our squad. Go through the spine of our team and ask the question, where's the pace. But there's also the question of physicality, too many of our players don't seem to have the suppleness or strength to outperform their physical characteristics.
    • #60
      Members Barham's tash's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by timbha View Post
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      Knocky lack the pace
      I’d love to see some stats but if I had to rank the whole squad for explosive pace I’d probably go:

      Izqueirdo
      Knockaert
      March
      Bernardo

      But hey, whatever.

      The others I agree with.

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