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  1. #11
    Members Worried Man Blues's Avatar
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    • #12
      Year of the Tiger #WHC Ninja Elephant's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bold Seagull View Post
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      Brilliant piece of analysis and kind of summed up how I felt at the time. As well as you focussing on Gross in the wide position given it wasn't his natural game, for me it was Izqueirdo on the left who really failed to deliver any kind of penetration or threat. I could almost understand risking Gross on the right if you had a player on the left causing all the problems, but the decision was coupled with woeful form from Izqueirdo which just double ended the decision.

      What it did highlight is that regardless of tactics, if you don't have the players to carry it out, you are screwed. Doesn't matter if you are the most tactically progressive manager on the planet, your tactics have to reflect the capabilities of the players. Dyche nearly found this out too late, in trying to expand their game Burnley's confidence was torn to shreds, he had to go back to robust rudimentary tactics that they only just got their belief back. Hasenhüttl recognised the untapped quality in the Southampton squad with Redmond and Ward-Prowse went from peripheral figures to central to their revival. You have to have the players to carry it out, and even though they were revived, both Burnley and Southampton did continue to stumble.

      What we saw in 2019 was just about every tactical formation you could think of in front of a conventional back 4. One thing I don't think Hughton could be accused of is not trying different tactics and different lineups.
      Quote Originally Posted by The Tactician View Post
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      Thank you - and I completely echo what you say re Izquierdo, in this game and in others, he has not been at effective at all. He simply didn’t pose enough of a threat to cause Newcastle any problems at all, so the issues we faced down the right with Groß also applied to our left side too. I’ve always been a huge fan of CH, but there’s no way of knowing how well our new manager will be able to utilise the squad.
      Jahanbakhsh, rather than Izquierdo. Played woefully out of position, in case that hasn't previously been mentioned.
    • #13
      Members Bold Seagull's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ninja Elephant View Post
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      Jahanbakhsh, rather than Izquierdo. Played woefully out of position, in case that hasn't previously been mentioned.
      Jahanbakhsh wasn't in the squad for the Newcastle home game.

      The other thing I'd note, is that Jahanbakhsh's heat map for his position in Holland, was predominantly on the right wing, where he has played much of the time for us. Not sure where this out of position opinion for us comes from?
    • #14
      Year of the Tiger #WHC Ninja Elephant's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bold Seagull View Post
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      Jahanbakhsh wasn't in the squad for the Newcastle home game.

      The other thing I'd note, is that Jahanbakhsh's heat map for his position in Holland, was predominantly on the right wing, where he has played much of the time for us. Not sure where this out of position opinion from us comes from?
      Izquierdo certainly wasn't - or was he? Has my memory already collapsed?! Apologies if so, I assumed Izquierdo was already out of the picture by that time.

      His absence this season has been a real shame, it's not really been mentioned too much but I do think if he'd been fit, he'd have played a lot more. He's our only genuine goal threat from the wings and would have helped himself to 5/6 goals in the league which would have meant a difference in points but also in how free other teams' right backs were to attack us at will.
    • #15
      I've asked for soup Mellotron's Avatar
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      I actually think that 4-4-2 could've worked, but was baffled that Gross and Izquierdo were chosen ahead of Knocky and March.
      ""Football. F***ing football. Imagine not being into it. Those poor, poor half-alive ********."
    • #16

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      Quote Originally Posted by Forster's Armband View Post
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      Good article, tactically very interesting.

      I disagree that the problem with 4-3-3 was player performances. I felt like that formation change wasn't coupled with enough of a philosophy shift. What we did really well in the Championship was defend solidly then break swiftly and effectively. Often it looked to me like caution was the buzz word even in the 4-3-3 against Cardiff, Bournemouth, Saints and Burnley. Hughton's preference for caution shackled our wingers and meant we played sideways and slow way too often when we need to take a risk (at the right moment). I am not advocating going for it v the big sides, of course, I just feel the game management Hughton reverted too often meant we were negative.

      I should caveat this with the fact I was on the fence about Hughton staying, I'd have been happy if he had stayed but I can totally see why Bloom sacked him and I agree with your analysis that the Newcastle game possibly did it for him.
      I don’t really disagree with what you’ve said. My observation has been that without Groß, we’ve been unable to play with an originally favoured 4-4-1-1. (Interestingly however, Hughton began playing 4-3-3 with Groß as one of the midfield 3) The sideways and backwards you allude to is symptomatic of a ‘V shape’ 4-3-3, where the extra midfielder aids ball retention. Without a number 10 to break the line, as an option for that forward pass, the responsibility falls upon the wide players to make things happen. And as you rightly point out, there probably wasn’t enough of a wider philosophy shift - something undoubtedly difficult to do mid-season. To make that system work, you also need intelligent runners from midfield to support the striker, something that did not happen often enough.
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    • #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bold Seagull View Post
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      Brilliant piece of analysis and kind of summed up how I felt at the time. As well as you focussing on Gross in the wide position given it wasn't his natural game, for me it was Izqueirdo on the left who really failed to deliver any kind of penetration or threat. I could almost understand risking Gross on the right if you had a player on the left causing all the problems, but the decision was coupled with woeful form from Izqueirdo which just double ended the decision.

      What it did highlight is that regardless of tactics, if you don't have the players to carry it out, you are screwed. Doesn't matter if you are the most tactically progressive manager on the planet, your tactics have to reflect the capabilities of the players. Dyche nearly found this out too late, in trying to expand their game Burnley's confidence was torn to shreds, he had to go back to robust rudimentary tactics that they only just got their belief back. Hasenhüttl recognised the untapped quality in the Southampton squad with Redmond and Ward-Prowse went from peripheral figures to central to their revival. You have to have the players to carry it out, and even though they were revived, both Burnley and Southampton did continue to stumble.

      What we saw in 2019 was just about every tactical formation you could think of in front of a conventional back 4. One thing I don't think Hughton could be accused of is not trying different tactics and different lineups.
      Agree to an extent - but why play Gross out wide and have Solly on the bench?
      Thanks Robbie - one day we'll name a stand after you.
    • #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by The Tactician View Post
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      I don’t really disagree with what you’ve said. My observation has been that without Groß, we’ve been unable to play with an originally favoured 4-4-1-1. (Interestingly however, Hughton began playing 4-3-3 with Groß as one of the midfield 3) The sideways and backwards you allude to is symptomatic of a ‘V shape’ 4-3-3, where the extra midfielder aids ball retention. Without a number 10 to break the line, as an option for that forward pass, the responsibility falls upon the wide players to make things happen. And as you rightly point out, there probably wasn’t enough of a wider philosophy shift - something undoubtedly difficult to do mid-season. To make that system work, you also need intelligent runners from midfield to support the striker, something that did not happen often enough.
      I totally agree. What I suppose Bloom has looked at is that Hughton didn't seem to realise this, perhaps Ashworth helped point it out. Do you think we could have played Propper or Bissouma in a number 10 role?
    • #19
      I look nothing like him! Jack Straw's Avatar
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      Fascinating and insightful stuff, and there's ARTWORK!
    • #20

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      Thanks for that. Very insightful.


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