Can we all become veggies?

Creaky · Jun 4, 2019

JCL666 said:
Eat what you want, I don't give a ****, but don't get all butt hurt when someone explains that the animals you eat don't want to die, are intelligent, have emotions and feelings.

Indeed . . . but the claim that vegans or anyone else stops eating meat for ethical reasons just doesn’t hold water.

Emotionally I can understand their stance.

However how many want rodents to run rife without some sort of control, and what of the much larger class of animals - insects?

Trillions are killed each day just to make our lives easier and in order to grow the crops we eat. If the decision to not eat meat were an ethical one then those same ethics would apply to insects.

Just 30 or 40 years ago a 30 mile drive would leave the windscreen totally covered in insects, now you’ll hardly see a mark! We have killed off whole species in order to efficiently grow crops, so much so that we are now importing bees.

Emotionally I can understand the distaste many have with regards to rearing animals in order to eat them but if it were truly an ethical decision then all life would have an equal value.

On a practical level we should be far more concerned with the massive fall in the number of pollinating insects without which we will be neither able to grow crops nor raise animals to eat.

Horton's halftime iceberg · Jun 4, 2019

dsr-burnley said:
I suspect that if all the hillsides and moorland where the sheep are living was turned into fields of wheat, the calorific intake might not go up as much as they like to suggest.

But as the UN chart shows, they do not need to be turned into agricultural land, in fact you could reforest, let land turn back to wild areas and use a lot of the current land dedicated to agriculture for other purposes and still feed an extra 3.5 billion people.

JCL666 · Jun 4, 2019

Creaky said:
Indeed . . . but the claim that vegans or anyone else stops eating meat for ethical reasons just doesn’t hold water.

Emotionally I can understand their stance.

However how many want rodents to run rife without some sort of control, and what of the much larger class of animals - insects?

Trillions are killed each day just to make our lives easier and in order to grow the crops we eat. If the decision to not eat meat were an ethical one then those same ethics would apply to insects.

Just 30 or 40 years ago a 30 mile drive would leave the windscreen totally covered in insects, now you’ll hardly see a mark! We have killed off whole species in order to efficiently grow crops, so much so that we are now importing bees.

Emotionally I can understand the distaste many have with regards to rearing animals in order to eat them but if it were truly an ethical decision then all life would have an equal value.

On a practical level we should be far more concerned with the massive fall in the number of pollinating insects without which we will be neither able to grow crops nor raise animals to eat.

Nonsense.

The argument you're putting forward is a binary one and tbh a statement like "if it were truly an ethical decision all life would have an equal value" is pretty lame.

We live in a world where it's pretty much impossible to not have a negative impact. Deciding to reduce the impact you have based on ethical reasons is entirely reasonable.

Mr Putdown · Jun 4, 2019

Creaky said:
On a practical level we should be far more concerned with the massive fall in the number of pollinating insects without which we will be neither able to grow crops nor raise animals to eat.

That’s not strictly true as most of the essential staple food crops such as corn, wheat, rice, soybeans and sorghum, need no insect help at all; they are wind pollinated or self pollinating.

Creaky · Jun 4, 2019

JCL666 said:
Nonsense.

The argument you're putting forward is a binary one and tbh a statement like "if it were truly an ethical decision all life would have an equal value" is pretty lame.

We live in a world where it's pretty much impossible to not have a negative impact. Deciding to reduce the impact you have based on ethical reasons is entirely reasonable.

Strange ethics that say that this life is worth more than that one. Practical, yes - emotional, yes - ethical, hmmm?

JCL666 · Jun 4, 2019

Creaky said:
Strange ethics that say that this life is worth more than that one. Practical, yes - emotional, yes - ethical, hmmm?

I think you've misunderstood what I posted. Not that it matters.

For the sake of debate let's assume you eat meat. If you do then your ethics follow the "this life is worth more than that one" logic.

If you are serious about insects and animal rights, then this essay by Peter Singer who wrote a very good book "Practical ethics" might be interesting http://animalstudies.org.au/archives/5998

Creaky · Jun 4, 2019

JCL666 said:
I think you've misunderstood what I posted. Not that it matters.

For the sake of debate let's assume you eat meat. If you do then your ethics follow the "this life is worth more than that one" logic.

If you are serious about insects and animal rights, then this essay by Peter Singer who wrote a very good book "Practical ethics" might be interesting http://animalstudies.org.au/archives/5998

Interesting piece.

Hu_Camus · Jun 4, 2019

Palacefinder General said:
It won't 'kill you.' The more you educate yourself the less likely you'll worry about trivialities like missing out on bacon. Meat is murder. Quorn is half the price of meat and delicious, as are many other veggie products. Make it so.

Scientists at Wageningen University in the Netherlands have discovered what many of us already knew: farmed animals feel empathy for their peers, a trait once thought exclusive to humans. These researchers discovered that “pigs shared the stress and happiness of their pen mates,”

Long time ago.....when the animal rights people were just becoming militant, I was called to bolster the alarm defences on an abattoir. It was a chastening experience. The cattle seemed quite docile as they were put through what is essentially an industrial scale and quite a swift process. The slaughterhouse took a really pragmatic outlook and contrived to have the queue of beasts unsighted until the last moment.
The pigs were an altogether different proposition. They KNEW, and squealed pitifully even though they undertook the same walk.....they knew what was coming through empathy or some other sensory connection with their group. I had my eye caught by piggies just pleading with their eyes.
Couldn't eat bacon for over five years after that.
Cynical old git I am, over it now.

Dick Head · Jun 7, 2019

I just watched this.

It's not your usual "vegan extremist propaganda" because it about and features the traditional farmers who actually produce the meat and how they struggle with the food industry. Everybody who eats food should watch it and it can be found on Netflix, Pirate Bay etc. etc.

Eating Animals [IMDb]

Durlston · Jun 7, 2019

The only meat I'm eating from now on is possibly ham and that won't be very much. Just a sandwich or a ham & pineapple pizza if I treat myself.

I love all vegetables and make sure I get the right food supplements in to make up for the lack of protein. I've found the link between sickness and red meat I think and when it was - too much of a coincidence.

I also get to save a few animals I hope. Daft bint at work today said they're for humans to eat. I groaned and walked away. :annoyed:

Herr Tubthumper · Jun 8, 2019

I am now meat free for two days a week.

Bozza · Jun 17, 2019

KFC trialling their new Imposter Burger in selected stores , made with Quorn.

Fungus · Jun 17, 2019

Had a fantastic "veggie power" pasty in Falmouth on Saturday - better than the steak version - and a great vegan burger at a restaurant in Truro yesterday. Not giving up meat just yet, but it's interesting to sample the alternatives when out and about. An easy way to start cutting down.

Westdene Seagull · Jun 17, 2019

Herr Tubthumper said:
I am now meat free for two days a week.

Poor effort HT ! Our household now eats meat two days a week, fish two days and veggie three days. Can't bring ourselves to cut out dairy and do a vegan day though.

Palacefinder General · Jun 17, 2019

Linda Mac's mozzarella burgers - trust me, you'll never look back, or in the words of Baron Samedi, from the Wings/Bond classic Live and Don't Let the Animals Die:

"It's going to be a beautiful day, beauuuuuuutiful day"

Bakero · Jun 17, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
Poor effort HT ! Our household now eats meat two days a week, fish two days and veggie three days. Can't bring ourselves to cut out dairy and do a vegan day though.

Dairy free days are the norm for me. Why would it be difficult for you? Milk in tea etc?

Westdene Seagull · Jun 17, 2019

Bakero said:
Dairy free days are the norm for me. Why would it be difficult for you? Milk in tea etc?

As you say, milk in drinks and milk on cereal. We've tried some of the alternatives and frankly found them disgusting. Equally we couldn't do without cheese and most of all ..... eggs ..... we have chickens and say day eggs are fantastic.

stewart12 · Jun 17, 2019

Herr Tubthumper said:
I am now meat free for two days a week.

having meat 5 days a week is still a lot

stewart12 · Jun 17, 2019

Bozza said:
KFC trialling their new Imposter Burger in selected stores , made with Quorn.

I get why so many companies are getting on the vegan wagon- it's a rapidly growing market

but if you're vegan for ethical reasons- the treatment of animals in the meat production industry etc would it not be slightly hypocritical to eat at somewhere like KFC?

stewart12 · Jun 17, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
As you say, milk in drinks and milk on cereal. We've tried some of the alternatives and frankly found them disgusting. Equally we couldn't do without cheese and most of all ..... eggs ..... we have chickens and say day eggs are fantastic.

so a fair amount of vegans still eat eggs if they're sourced in the way that you get yours. The egg industry is pretty grim but eating eggs that have come from your own chickens is pretty harm free surely? (and I presume they taste better?)

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