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[Albion] A few observations post Cardiff...



The Tactician

Well-known member
Feb 18, 2013
1,052
I have to say, I'm rather shocked by the extent of the reaction to what was, without doubt, a very poor night. Now a majority calling for CH to go, lots of comments flying around, some of which are certainly justified. Some, on the contrary, are in my view, completely incompatible with what I'm seeing on the pitch. A bit of perspective is required - and not the 'look how we've come' kind.

With a wave of negativity, comes with it a variety of soundbites which are simply not true, or with very little evidence to suggest this is the case.

1. Hughton has lost the dressing room, the players don't want to play for him anymore. The first 15 minutes of the game yesterday, with Pascal back in the side, the team started well. A few early shots, some great movement, Bruno looked a calming influence. If we're honest, we started looking good. We should have had a penalty, stonewall by all accounts. After conceding, the team's confidence slumped badly. It's clear to me that the players are extremely nervous, they look desperate to succeed, but it's not translating onto the pitch quite the way we want and need it to. The point being, anyone who watched the opening exchanges: Did we look like a team that didn't want to play for the manager?

2. The players don't care This is a really interesting one. I have seen thousands of comments claiming "The players don't give a toss", "They're all overpaid and lazy, they don't care at all". The fact is, the players were stupidly overpaid when they won promotion, they were stupidly overpaid when we beat Palace (twice) and they've been overpaid for every single game over the last few years, whether they've played good or bad. It's an irrelevancy, we know footballers earn too much - no one seems to care when things are going well. And as we know, things can't go well all the time. Referring back to the first 15 minutes or so, did the players really look like they didn't care? I saw effort, I saw urgency, but critically, I also saw nervousness and as the game went on, desperation.

People are absolutely entitled to be frustrated, to be disappointed, but words matter. What you actually say matters. There's nothing, not a shred of evidence, to suggest 'dressing room unrest' - it's easy fiction made up to accompany a run of terrible form and lack of confidence. The players, to my mind, look devastated with themselves. They don't look like they don't really care, like they didn't want to win the game. They know they're underperforming, and they can't muster the confidence given the pressure. Worth remembering, everyone seemed to expect Cardiff to go down, so they enjoy a privileged underdogs tag. Now we appear to have hit rock bottom, maybe one bit of luck, one bit of magic, can spark a surprise - and we can prove to everyone, including vast swathes of our own fans - that the team won't give up, that we deserve to stay in this league.

Hughton IN :albion2:
UTA :albion2:
 

LlcoolJ

Mama said knock you out.
Oct 14, 2009
12,982
Sheffield
I've basically avoided all those threads and #bhafc Twitter because it's all bound to be full of the type of nonsense you describe. Can't be bothered with it. UTA.
 

Nixonator

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2016
6,733
Shoreham Beach
Could have been very different if we got that clear penalty. Current dire performances aside, we are long overdue some decisions going our way.

Was never going to happen though was it with Warnock's pressure on the officials. They owed him a favour apparently, and they were happy to oblige in a game vs Brighton.
 

MattBackHome

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
11,681
I have to say, I'm rather shocked by the extent of the reaction to what was, without doubt, a very poor night. Now a majority calling for CH to go, lots of comments flying around, some of which are certainly justified. Some, on the contrary, are in my view, completely incompatible with what I'm seeing on the pitch. A bit of perspective is required - and not the 'look how we've come' kind.

With a wave of negativity, comes with it a variety of soundbites which are simply not true, or with very little evidence to suggest this is the case.

1. Hughton has lost the dressing room, the players don't want to play for him anymore. The first 15 minutes of the game yesterday, with Pascal back in the side, the team started well. A few early shots, some great movement, Bruno looked a calming influence. If we're honest, we started looking good. We should have had a penalty, stonewall by all accounts. After conceding, the team's confidence slumped badly. It's clear to me that the players are extremely nervous, they look desperate to succeed, but it's not translating onto the pitch quite the way we want and need it to. The point being, anyone who watched the opening exchanges: Did we look like a team that didn't want to play for the manager?

2. The players don't care This is a really interesting one. I have seen thousands of comments claiming "The players don't give a toss", "They're all overpaid and lazy, they don't care at all". The fact is, the players were stupidly overpaid when they won promotion, they were stupidly overpaid when we beat Palace (twice) and they've been overpaid for every single game over the last few years, whether they've played good or bad. It's an irrelevancy, we know footballers earn too much - no one seems to care when things are going well. And as we know, things can't go well all the time. Referring back to the first 15 minutes or so, did the players really look like they didn't care? I saw effort, I saw urgency, but critically, I also saw nervousness and as the game went on, desperation.

People are absolutely entitled to be frustrated, to be disappointed, but words matter. What you actually say matters. There's nothing, not a shred of evidence, to suggest 'dressing room unrest' - it's easy fiction made up to accompany a run of terrible form and lack of confidence. The players, to my mind, look devastated with themselves. They don't look like they don't really care, like they didn't want to win the game. They know they're underperforming, and they can't muster the confidence given the pressure. Worth remembering, everyone seemed to expect Cardiff to go down, so they enjoy a privileged underdogs tag. Now we appear to have hit rock bottom, maybe one bit of luck, one bit of magic, can spark a surprise - and we can prove to everyone, including vast swathes of our own fans - that the team won't give up, that we deserve to stay in this league.

Hughton IN :albion2:
UTA :albion2:

I agree with the above - the two soundbites you've highlighted are unjustified.

I reckon however that by virtue of the tactical rigidity, the boredom and the predictability that he should be consciously uncoupled from BHAFC.
 

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,239
think those are just "go to" cliches people use when performances are poor, without really knowing. there are problems but i dont think its either of them.
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
49,900
Goldstone
I have to say, I'm rather shocked by the extent of the reaction to what was, without doubt, a very poor night. Now a majority calling for CH to go, lots of comments flying around, some of which are certainly justified. Some, on the contrary, are in my view, completely incompatible with what I'm seeing on the pitch. A bit of perspective is required
I'm shocked that you're shocked. Many football fans are very emotional and jump to conclusions based on results. It's always been this way, and that's why I usually swerve NSC for a bit after we've lost. Plenty of fans have no perspective. That doesn't mean I think fans don't have the right to be fed up, I just think some of them pick the wrong targets when lashing out.

Against Southampton, we (IMO) were not being positive enough, and then they scored when we were busy passing the ball backwards. That summed up our efforts for many of us.

But the same is clearly not true for the game against Bournemouth - we were trying, we were attacking, and we were badly out of shape and got done on the counter.

Yesterday too, we were trying and we were attacking. Then Mendez scored with an impressive finish (I think we were fouled in the build up, but it wasn't given). Their second was from a free-kick, which I'm also not too sure was the correct decision. Several decisions went against us, the linesman on the east in the second half was awful - Andone was full WWE style wrestled to the ground at one point, and he gave nothing (shortly after he'd given a free-kick against Andone for just being in the vicinity when a Cardiff player slumped to the ground).

Things are just going against us at the moment.
 

dingodan

New member
Feb 16, 2011
10,080
Could have been very different if we got that clear penalty. Current dire performances aside, we are long overdue some decisions going our way.

Was never going to happen though was it with Warnock's pressure on the officials. They owed him a favour apparently, and they were happy to oblige in a game vs Brighton.

I actually stopped counting at about 6, but I make that something in the region of 8 (Eight) penalties which we haven't been given in 2019.

That's not 8 "shouts" at a penalty. It's, on review, 8 stonewall penalties. In the view of commentators and pundits, not just me. Even before last night I was wondering whether PB has been able to say or do anything in terms of expressing dismay to the officials and the FA, because that's likely 8 goals we should have had and that can make an enourmous difference. On some of those occassions we've been playing well, should have been awarded a penalty and then lost our heads (and confidence) after it being denied.

I know we cannot blame referees for our current form, but either there is some kind of FA conspiracy against us, which abviously isn't likely, or Warnock was right. Premier League referees are some of the worst and most incompetent in the world. I just hope it doesn't end up contributing to costing us our place in this league and that we will still be here when VAR kicks in and we won't have to rely so heavily on what appear to be, at least in our games, referees who are not able to spot a clear penalty.
 

SollysLeftFoot

New member
Mar 17, 2019
1,037
Bitchin' in Hitchin
Plenty of fans have no perspective.

This 'no perspective' is thrown about so frequently without anyone actually offering what 'the perspective' should be.

The 'perspective' is:
25 points in our first half of season
8 points in 2019
Formation switch has cost us dearly, but no change to how it was prior
Defensive rigidity has been sacrificed for a few more %points in possession with no game plan as to what to do with said possession
In ability to bounce back
Players look shot on confidence
Underperforming players not being replaced with fringe players to ensure there is competition (I.E. Stephens and Kayal)

Not sure what else we're meant to be looking at, we know our players under the right formation can produce something - but they've been tweaked and now we're not getting results.
 


Uncle Spielberg

Well-known member
NSC Licker Extraordinaire
Jul 6, 2003
42,770
Lancing
It is not so much they don't care, bar Propper who looks like he left the club a few weeks ago more that they are not a very good team at this level really I would say. How long and how many seasons do we really want to be trying to claw to 17th in the league and looking desperately at other teams results and hoping other teams will do us a favour, like we are now. No fan wants that, surely ?
That is why I think although a financial disaster for the club to be relegated without a whimper after 7 years of meticulous planning to get there in the first place and hundreds of millions of pounds, a lot of fans won't mind going down as the Championship is a good league and we might have a chance of scoring a few goals and winning a few games. The whole feeling around the club atm is not so much if we will go down but when
 

theonesmith

Well-known member
Oct 27, 2008
2,328
I have to say, I'm rather shocked by the extent of the reaction to what was, without doubt, a very poor night. Now a majority calling for CH to go, lots of comments flying around, some of which are certainly justified. Some, on the contrary, are in my view, completely incompatible with what I'm seeing on the pitch. A bit of perspective is required - and not the 'look how we've come' kind.

With a wave of negativity, comes with it a variety of soundbites which are simply not true, or with very little evidence to suggest this is the case.

1. Hughton has lost the dressing room, the players don't want to play for him anymore. The first 15 minutes of the game yesterday, with Pascal back in the side, the team started well. A few early shots, some great movement, Bruno looked a calming influence. If we're honest, we started looking good. We should have had a penalty, stonewall by all accounts. After conceding, the team's confidence slumped badly. It's clear to me that the players are extremely nervous, they look desperate to succeed, but it's not translating onto the pitch quite the way we want and need it to. The point being, anyone who watched the opening exchanges: Did we look like a team that didn't want to play for the manager?

2. The players don't care This is a really interesting one. I have seen thousands of comments claiming "The players don't give a toss", "They're all overpaid and lazy, they don't care at all". The fact is, the players were stupidly overpaid when they won promotion, they were stupidly overpaid when we beat Palace (twice) and they've been overpaid for every single game over the last few years, whether they've played good or bad. It's an irrelevancy, we know footballers earn too much - no one seems to care when things are going well. And as we know, things can't go well all the time. Referring back to the first 15 minutes or so, did the players really look like they didn't care? I saw effort, I saw urgency, but critically, I also saw nervousness and as the game went on, desperation.

People are absolutely entitled to be frustrated, to be disappointed, but words matter. What you actually say matters. There's nothing, not a shred of evidence, to suggest 'dressing room unrest' - it's easy fiction made up to accompany a run of terrible form and lack of confidence. The players, to my mind, look devastated with themselves. They don't look like they don't really care, like they didn't want to win the game. They know they're underperforming, and they can't muster the confidence given the pressure. Worth remembering, everyone seemed to expect Cardiff to go down, so they enjoy a privileged underdogs tag. Now we appear to have hit rock bottom, maybe one bit of luck, one bit of magic, can spark a surprise - and we can prove to everyone, including vast swathes of our own fans - that the team won't give up, that we deserve to stay in this league.

Hughton IN :albion2:
UTA :albion2:

Wise words indeed.

I would say that these are natural reactions. We’ve slumped in form, and people are grasping for reasons to a) explain and b) resolve this. Hence we see blame directed towards most obvious candidates and the sudden recommendations of Allardyce for manager and Gyokeres up front.

Our progress as a club in recent years has been built on steady evolution and consistency. I don’t think huge disruption is the answer here.

I also, perhaps optimistically, believe we need to win one of our remaining games. I’d hedge my bets that staying in 4411 for the rest of the season and finding that old resilience and organisation we used to have is our best shot.

In the summer we need to do some soul searching and figure out 1) what system do we want to play, 2) what players do we need. This is, in my mind, the biggest discrepancy this season.
 

SollysLeftFoot

New member
Mar 17, 2019
1,037
Bitchin' in Hitchin
It is not so much they don't care, bar Propper who looks like he left the club a few weeks ago more that they are not a very good team at this level really I would say. How long and how many seasons do we really want to be trying to claw to 17th in the league and looking desperately at other teams results and hoping other teams will do us a favour, like we are now. No fan wants that, surely ?
That is why I think although a financial disaster for the club to be relegated without a whimper after 7 years of meticulous planning to get there in the first place and hundreds of millions of pounds, a lot of fans won't mind going down as the Championship is a good league and we might have a chance of scoring a few goals and winning a few games. The whole feeling around the club atm is not so much if we will go down but when

But I don't think anyone's under the illusion that we won't go back down eventually. I think the primary problem here is how we're going down if, we were fighting every game and we genuinely looked like we were trying then I think most fans would appreciate and respect the players for that. However, that isn't the case and what we are seeing are passionless, demotivated players and a manager unable to turn things around after making considerable changes to how we played midway through a season rather than through preseason.
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
49,900
Goldstone
This 'no perspective' is thrown about so frequently without anyone actually offering what 'the perspective' should be.
Because to give the true answer, someone would have to
a) be at all the training sessions, and in the dressing room at all times
b) be impartial
c) be a tactical genius

No one can do that. There are extremely well paid, experienced, professional football pundits across the sports channels, and we all know how they can get things monumentally wrong (and right sometimes, of course), so what chance does your average angry fan have?

The 'perspective' is:
25 points in our first half of season
8 points in 2019
Formation switch has cost us dearly, but no change to how it was prior
Well that's wrong. We got 25 points playing 4411, went 433 and got nowhere, and yesterday we were back to 4411 with Gross and Murray.

Defensive rigidity has been sacrificed for a few more %points in possession with no game plan as to what to do with said possession
I'd say defensive rigidity had been sacrificed for a more attacking style, and it's failed. We were capable of having defensive rigidity and attacking when in the Championship, but we haven't really managed it in the PL.

Players look shot on confidence
I think so too, but I didn't think that when we played at Wembley. We've failed to create enough good chances, and failed to take those that we have created. I also think we've been unlucky with ref decisions, and opposing strikers have had purple patches against us.

Not sure what else we're meant to be looking at, we know our players under the right formation can produce something - but they've been tweaked and now we're not getting results.
Indeed, but knowing the cause is the million dollar question.
 

SollysLeftFoot

New member
Mar 17, 2019
1,037
Bitchin' in Hitchin
Because to give the true answer, someone would have to
a) be at all the training sessions, and in the dressing room at all times
b) be impartial
c) be a tactical genius

No one can do that. There are extremely well paid, experienced, professional football pundits across the sports channels, and we all know how they can get things monumentally wrong (and right sometimes, of course), so what chance does your average angry fan have?

Well that's wrong. We got 25 points playing 4411, went 433 and got nowhere, and yesterday we were back to 4411 with Gross and Murray.

Such a convincing 'wrong'.

A Gross back from a long time out. And a team that has now had to resort back to 4-4-1-1 after months of playing and being battered at 4-3-3. You got me. Convincing...
 


Gazwag

5 millionth post poster
Mar 4, 2004
30,086
Bexhill-on-Sea
I know we cannot blame referees for our current form, but either there is some kind of FA conspiracy against us, which abviously isn't likely, or Warnock was right. Premier League referees are some of the worst and most incompetent in the world. I just hope it doesn't end up contributing to costing us our place in this league and that we will still be here when VAR kicks in and we won't have to rely so heavily on what appear to be, at least in our games, referees who are not able to spot a clear penalty.

After the VAR incident at Wembley I have no confidence that the video refs "opinion" will be fair and any benefit of doubt will go to the "big" teams when playing the "small teams"
 

sussex_guy2k2

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2014
3,652
I'm shocked that you're shocked. Many football fans are very emotional and jump to conclusions based on results. It's always been this way, and that's why I usually swerve NSC for a bit after we've lost.

You can't have been on here much in the last 4 months :rave:
 

Weststander

Well-known member
NSC Licker Extraordinaire
Aug 25, 2011
63,156
Withdean area
It is not so much they don't care, bar Propper who looks like he left the club a few weeks ago more that they are not a very good team at this level really I would say. How long and how many seasons do we really want to be trying to claw to 17th in the league and looking desperately at other teams results and hoping other teams will do us a favour, like we are now. No fan wants that, surely ?
That is why I think although a financial disaster for the club to be relegated without a whimper after 7 years of meticulous planning to get there in the first place and hundreds of millions of pounds, a lot of fans won't mind going down as the Championship is a good league and we might have a chance of scoring a few goals and winning a few games. The whole feeling around the club atm is not so much if we will go down but when

Great post.
 

B-right-on

Living the dream
Apr 23, 2015
6,154
Shoreham Beaaaach
That's all fine but it doesn't explain to me how Stephens, Propper etc fail to make the simple passes right. Not out or to a Cardiff player. Or how they stood off players and gave them the time and space to shoot. And the list goes on.
I don't know about the dressing room, player morale it their wages.
I do know when I see people not doing what they are capable of doing and have done in the past.
 


sydney

tinky ****in winky
Jul 11, 2003
17,701
town full of eejits
I actually stopped counting at about 6, but I make that something in the region of 8 (Eight) penalties which we haven't been given in 2019.

That's not 8 "shouts" at a penalty. It's, on review, 8 stonewall penalties. In the view of commentators and pundits, not just me. Even before last night I was wondering whether PB has been able to say or do anything in terms of expressing dismay to the officials and the FA, because that's likely 8 goals we should have had and that can make an enourmous difference. On some of those occassions we've been playing well, should have been awarded a penalty and then lost our heads (and confidence) after it being denied.

I know we cannot blame referees for our current form, but either there is some kind of FA conspiracy against us, which abviously isn't likely, or Warnock was right. Premier League referees are some of the worst and most incompetent in the world. I just hope it doesn't end up contributing to costing us our place in this league and that we will still be here when VAR kicks in and we won't have to rely so heavily on what appear to be, at least in our games, referees who are not able to spot a clear penalty.

perhaps if we are relegated we can hire Geoffrey Robertson and sue the F.A for having incapable officials citing the 8 clear penalties .....i agree from what i have seen we get very little from refs ....Murray particularly .


not sure the conspiracy thing is that laughable to be honest......considering that the country is slowly being sold out to the arabs and our chairmans heritage.
 

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