[Albion] Davy Propper

Seasidesage · May 30, 2019

People like to generalise to make a point. I haven't really seen anyone pleased that Hughton went, even those like me who thought it was time for a change. What would worry me would be if we went with the same squad and just assumed that Potter has a magic wand. For me at least the way forward is to try and integrate young up and coming players from both the UK and abroad into the existing squad whether they are already here or scouted. We need to work incrementally towards getting ourselves a younger and of course better team, playing in a style that offers both excitement and results. So no problem there then?

The only way we can ever hope to do anything in this league is a combination of the Spurs and Southampton models. Scout better than our rivals, find our own talent and develop it, sell well and reinvest and repeat to improve the squad depth. This is basically the model of just about every team outside the big 6, but we have put the building blocks in place rather well over the last few years. We have a great ground, a fantastic Academy set up and now with Ashworth probably the most highly regarded development director in the country. Throw in a young progressive and hopefully good coach and we have the set up to build something special IMO.

Time will tell whether it works of course but I think our medium/long term plan is in excellent shape, my worry is more immediate, can we affect the change in style to our existing squad in an ever tougher league without losing our PL status? That's why I think this window is so vital to our future and most significant since we entered the PL.

chaileyjem · May 30, 2019

sussex_guy2k2 said:
I've genuinely not seen a single post that claims these things. .

I'm not going to quote them but there are about 5 or 6 posts on this thread that think all Potter has to do to make Davy Propper a better player is free him from his "defensive shackles" and play him in a different position (ie: Pascal Gross's position who presumably wont' be playing).

Nixonator · May 30, 2019

Seasidesage said:
People like to generalise to make a point. I haven't really seen anyone pleased that Hughton went, even those like me who thought it was time for a change. What would worry me would be if we went with the same squad and just assumed that Potter has a magic wand. For me at least the way forward is to try and integrate young up and coming players from both the UK and abroad into the existing squad whether they are already here or scouted. We need to work incrementally towards getting ourselves a younger and of course better team, playing in a style that offers both excitement and results. So no problem there then?

The only way we can ever hope to do anything in this league is a combination of the Spurs and Southampton models. Scout better than our rivals, find our own talent and develop it, sell well and reinvest and repeat to improve the squad depth. This is basically the model of just about every team outside the big 6, but we have put the building blocks in place rather well over the last few years. We have a great ground, a fantastic Academy set up and now with Ashworth probably the most highly regarded development director in the country. Throw in a young progressive and hopefully good coach and we have the set up to build something special IMO.

Time will tell whether it works of course but I think our medium/long term plan is in excellent shape, my worry is more immediate, can we affect the change in style to our existing squad in an ever tougher league without losing our PL status? That's why I think this window is so vital to our future and most significant since we entered the PL.

Well articulated point.

It's all very well saying that we have a plan to sign young players, develop them through the academy and have a certain way of playing instilled from there to the first team, but in the immediate term that will do absolutely nothing for us. Even if that proves to be a success in the years to come, we will always need to mix that up with signing quality players.

Our current situation is far from the above, we need several key signings to see us through the next couple of years at least before we can expect anything from this long-term plan.

Anybody suggesting that Potter has been brought in to get the best out of what we have is mad. It's true that Potter may extract some semblance of footballing talent from the likes of Locadia and Jahanbaksh, but we certainly can't rely on that with any degree of confidence whatsoever. There may have been few, but they did have opportunities and space to show what they're about (particularly Locadia) and they did nothing. If anybody is saying that they had the 'shackles' on for the duration they are just daft.

I would say we need to spend more than we have in any previous window, and increase the salary cap for the sake of 2-3 proven signings in key areas. Otherwise we are in big trouble. With Dunk likely to be announced club captain (and the bumper deal that will come with it), it's fairly obvious that the salary cap will be increased regardless of incoming transfer demands.

sussex_guy2k2 · May 30, 2019

chaileyjem said:
I'm not going to quote them but there are about 5 or 6 posts on this thread that think all Potter has to do to make Davy Propper a better player is free him from his "defensive shackles" and play him in a different position (ie: Pascal Gross's position who presumably wont' be playing).

Ultimately we're never going to know the answer to that question because Hughton never let him play that role in our side. What I would say is that with the shackles added this year, Gross looked substantially less effective than he did last year with his set piece delivery being quite comfortably countered by his lack of mobility causing us all kinds of defensive and transitional issues in the second half of the season. Propper has had, you'd imagine, many of the same issues as his natural attacking instincts look like they've being held back for two years under Hughton. Consequently, it's quite logical to suggest that a player who came to us as a forward thinking midfielder would actually look better in such a role and with other forward thinking midfielders and forwards around him rather than looking like Stephens' identical twin as he has in a less natural position for the past two seasons.

And anyway, I'm not sure it's about making him a better player. It's about letting him be the player he naturally is rather than shackling him as we have been doing. I mean you wouldn't ask Murray to spend all game running in behind and expect results would you?

Weststander · May 30, 2019

Nixonator said:
.....

Our current situation is far from the above, we need several key signings to see us through the next couple of years at least before we can expect anything from this long-term plan.

Anybody suggesting that Potter has been brought in to get the best out of what we have is mad. It's true that Potter may extract some semblance of footballing talent from the likes of Locadia and Jahanbaksh, but we certainly can't rely on that with any degree of confidence whatsoever. There may have been few, but they did have opportunities and space to show what they're about (particularly Locadia) and they did nothing. If anybody is saying that they had the 'shackles' on for the duration they are just daft.

I would say we need to spend more than we have in any previous window, and increase the salary cap for the sake of 2-3 proven signings in key areas. Otherwise we are in big trouble. With Dunk likely to be announced club captain (and the bumper deal that will come with it), it's fairly obvious that the salary cap will be increased regardless of incoming transfer demands.

This 100%.

For those sneering (next to impossible) about bringing in 3 quality first team players this summer, other clubs manage it with relative ease. Bmuff, Stains and Watford in their PL years have all got out the cheque book to sign the likes of Lerma, Ake, Pereyra, Deulofeu, Doucoure, Capoue, VVD, Redmond, Bertrand. Shirley similar size clubs to the Albion, without the slightest hint of financial collapse.

chaileyjem · May 30, 2019

sussex_guy2k2 said:
Ultimately we're never going to know the answer to that question because Hughton never let him play that role in our side. What I would say is that with the shackles added this year

what are these shackles that everyone is talking about ? Do we no longer have to defend in games ? Is it simply a case of casting them aside and away we go ?

jackanada · May 30, 2019

I love Davy propper. Whether he improves under potter I’ve no idea, likewise I’ve no idea where he’s going to get played if he stays a first team regular.

What I think I know is this: potter may have a style of play but that doesn’t mean he’s beyond pragmatism. How the team is set up will be him marrying how he wants to play with the players he has available.
The aim of this season is once again avoiding relegation, if this is done it wil probably be with more wins, more losses, and less draws.
Glenn Murray will play less. You don’t have to have blinding pace to play up front, but to play any way other than last seasons default a CF just cannot be on the slow side.

sussex_guy2k2 · May 30, 2019

chaileyjem said:
what are these shackles that everyone is talking about ? Do we no longer have to defend in games ? Is it simply a case of casting them aside and away we go ?

Games are about balance, are they not? We certainly didn't have that last year.

chaileyjem · May 30, 2019

Weststander said:
This 100%.

For those sneering (next to impossible) about bringing in 3 quality first team players this summer, other clubs manage it with relative ease. Bmuff, Stains and Watford in their PL years have all got out the cheque book to sign the likes of Lerma, Ake, Pereyra, Deulofeu, Doucoure, Capoue, VVD, Redmond, Bertrand. Shirley similar size clubs to the Albion, without the slightest hint of financial collapse.

We signed some expensive and what we thought were quality players both last season and this season. Some worked out . Some didn't.
Bournemouth paid a fortune (in wages) for jermaine defoe and (apart from scoring against us - thanks !) was about as impactful as Locadia or Ali J. Ridiculous to think we're the only club where big signings don't work out. or that Bournemouth or others have the monopoly on decent signings. ( i'm sure all of them would have loved to have picked up Gross for £3m or Bissouma come to think of it).

Icy Gull · May 30, 2019

chaileyjem said:
We signed some expensive and what we thought were quality players both last season and this season. Some worked out . Some didn't.
Bournemouth paid a fortune (in wages) for jermaine defoe and (apart from scoring against us - thanks !) was about as impactful as Locadia or Ali J. Ridiculous to think we're the only club where big signings don't work out. or that Bournemouth or others have the monopoly on decent signings. ( i'm sure all of them would have loved to have picked up Gross for £3m or Bissouma come to think of it).

Let it go Chailey, embrace the future :smile:

Weststander · May 30, 2019

chaileyjem said:
We signed some expensive and what we thought were quality players both last season and this season. Some worked out . Some didn't.
Bournemouth paid a fortune (in wages) for jermaine defoe and (apart from scoring against us - thanks !) was about as impactful as Locadia or Ali J. Ridiculous to think we're the only club where big signings don't work out. or that Bournemouth or others have the monopoly on decent signings. ( i'm sure all of them would have loved to have picked up Gross for £3m or Bissouma come to think of it).

I’m not giving up on Bissouma, Locadia and Jahanbakhsh. Bissouma is a fairly young work in progress, with promise. The other two may or may not work out, we’ll find out under Potter. None of the three have produced significantly to our PL performances.

Bmuff - have made 2 mistakes in the wage awarded to Defoe and the £20m paid for Ibe. No club is free of transfer faux pas’s, other than say the current recruitment system at Spurs and Liverpool. Bmuff have however bought many very good PL players.

Last season delivered losing dross for Albion fans. Month after month being taking apart by virtually everyone, including at the Amex. Hence TB’s decision to sack Hughton. Fans can’t have it all ways, that each of; Hughton, Locadia, Propper, Montoya and Jahanbaksh performed well. The months of losing dross demonstrated that our football was simply not good enough.

Stat Brother · May 30, 2019

chaileyjem said:
what are these shackles that everyone is talking about ?

Propper's expected position on the pitch and the expectation from his passing.

I believe he was 'shackled' too deep, although like you I don't believe he's the 'nos 10'.
I also believe he was expected to keep his passing short and of minimal risk.

I would like to see an unshackled Propper playing away from Dunk and Duffy while being expected to play attacking forward passes out wide, or over the top of the opposition defence.

Weststander · May 30, 2019

Stat Brother said:
Propper's expected position on the pitch and the expectation from his passing.

I believe he was 'shackled' too deep, although like you I don't believe he's the 'nos 10'.
I also believe he was expected to keep his passing short and of minimal risk.

I would like to see an unshackled Propper playing away from Dunk and Duffy while being expected to play attacking forward passes out wide, or over the top of the opposition defence.

That could work, if we bring in a quality, pacey midfield ‘general’ or box to box CM. With dare I say, DS as the sitter.

Potter, like most/all PL managers, favours a fast game of a quick transition and players able to play at pace. I can’t see room for both Gross and Propper in a PL first 11 ... otherwise it’s simply CH’s team, made to run faster and for longer. That’s impossible.

Stat Brother · May 30, 2019

Weststander said:
That could work, if we bring in a quality, pacey midfield ‘general’ or box to box CM. With dare I say, DS as the sitter.

Potter, like most/all PL managers, favours a fast game of a quick transition and players able to play at pace. I can’t see room for both Gross and Propper in a PL first 11 ... otherwise it’s simply CH’s team, made to run faster and for longer. That’s impossible.

Arrrrrggggghhhhhh this is so frustrating.

The players don't have to be fast.

The ball must move faster, forwarder & acurater.

I watched most of last night's game ONLY looking for 'fast' footballers.

With the exception of Makland Niles (sp) nobody, not a single player, ran at and past a member of the opposition.
But the ball was pinged about forward either to feet or space with great speed and accuracy.

One Teddy Maybank · May 30, 2019

Stat Brother said:
Arrrrrggggghhhhhh this is so frustrating.

The players don't have to be fast.

The ball must move faster, forwarder & acurater.

I watched most of last night's game ONLY looking for 'fast' footballers.

With the exception of Makland Niles (sp) nobody, not a single player, ran at and past a member of the opposition.
But the ball was pinged about forward either to feet or space with great speed and accuracy.

Everything you say about movement, quickness of thought is correct, but you cannot dismiss pace!
The vast majority of transition between defence and attack is based on all of the above.

You clearly watched a different game to me.

Hazard is fast, practically all of the players in the final third Ozil and Giroud apart, had a turn of pace/explosive pace from a standing start. It is not just about running past people, it is running on to the ball played into space that you described, it is about making a poor pass a good one in some cases.....

Not going to agree on this one.....

One Teddy Maybank · May 30, 2019

Stat Brother said:
Propper's expected position on the pitch and the expectation from his passing.

I believe he was 'shackled' too deep, although like you I don't believe he's the 'nos 10'.
I also believe he was expected to keep his passing short and of minimal risk.

I would like to see an unshackled Propper playing away from Dunk and Duffy while being expected to play attacking forward passes out wide, or over the top of the opposition defence.

Definitely not a '10', his finishing has been really poor since he arrived.
Most of his success at PSV seemed to be playing the type of passes you describe, through balls for players to run on to.

But picking up another point, I though Potter liked short passing?
Might have imagined it.

Icy Gull · May 30, 2019

Potter’s first job is to find out which players are actually capable of being comfortable on the ball. On last season’s showing it was Bruno, Bernardo, Locadia, Propper, Gross, Dunk, AK, March, Bong, Montoya and dare I say AJ. Once we shake off this passing around the back and shitting ourselves we might lose the ball, so basically passing the ball around in our own half like a hot potato, things will get better.....imo

Once there is a forward outlet players can be judged better, again just imo

As Stat says speed of thought and ability to execute the passes accurately is more important than outright pace on the ball. Obviously we need quick players but experienced players with nous and ability are what is important.

I’m gonna go out on a limb and suggest that Stephens will be a revelation next season. He is capable of playing the killer ball to a player in front of him.

Stat Brother · May 30, 2019

One Teddy Maybank said:
Everything you say about movement, quickness of thought is correct, but you cannot dismiss pace!
The vast majority of transition between defence and attack is based on all of the above.

You clearly watched a different game to me.

Hazard is fast, practically all of the players in the final third Ozil and Giroud apart, had a turn of pace/explosive pace from a standing start. It is not just about running past people, it is running on to the ball played into space that you described, it is about making a poor pass a good one in some cases.....

Not going to agree on this one.....

No we're not because you're wrong. :lol:

I'd be amazed if the Albion's attacking players are 'slow' when compared to their top 6 counterparts.
Big Jurg wasn't 'slow' when scoring v Arsenal.

They might be a touch slower but I'll wager 12 pence they look considerably slower because of their starting position due to previous expectations.
Changing those expectations and way of thinking will increase their speed, sure only by a fine margin, but those fine margins are the difference between 8th and 18th.

We have spent 7 seasons now watching variations of:-

Koosh to Greer to Bruno to Stephens to Duffy to Bridcutt to Ryan to Dunk to Propper to Calderon to Stockdale to El Abd.
It's no wonder we're all having trouble getting past that.

At least with Sami it was different as clearly nobody knew what was going on!!

If Potter's aim is to change that to Bernie Inn to Propper to Big Jurg to Andone - Then I for one welcome to new overlord.

One Teddy Maybank · May 30, 2019

Stat Brother said:
No we're not because you're wrong.
I'd be amazed if the Albion's attacking players are 'slow' when compared to their top 6 counterparts.
Big Jurg wasn't 'slow' when scoring v Arsenal.

They might be a touch slower but I'll wager 12 pence they look considerably slower because of their starting position due to previous expectations.
Changing those expectations and way of thinking will increase their speed, sure only by a fine margin, but those fine margins are the difference between 8th and 18th.

We have spent 7 seasons now watching variations of:-

Koosh to Greer to Bruno to Stephens to Duffy to Bridcutt to Ryan to Dunk to Propper to Calderon to Stockdale to El Abd.
It's no wonder we're all having trouble getting past that.

At least with Sami it was different as clearly nobody knew what was going on!!

If Potter's aim is to change that to Bernie Inn to Propper to Big Jurg to Andone - Then I for one welcome to new overlord.

I never said the Arsenal defence were fast, they're really slow, hence Big Jurg looking fast!!

One Teddy Maybank · May 30, 2019

Icy Gull said:
Potter’s first job is to find out which players are actually capable of being comfortable on the ball. On last season’s showing it was Bruno, Bernardo, Locadia, Propper, Gross, Dunk, AK, March, Bong, Montoya and dare I say AJ. Once we shake off this passing around the back and shitting ourselves we might lose the ball, so basically passing the ball around in our own half like a hot potato, things will get better.....imo

Once there is a forward outlet players can be judged better, again just imo

As Stat says speed of thought and ability to execute the passes accurately is more important than outright pace on the ball. Obviously we need quick players but experienced players with nous and ability are what is important.

I’m gonna go out on a limb and suggest that Stephens will be a revelation next season. He is capable of playing the killer ball to a player in front of him.

Yes which was the biggest issue in the second part of last season, as Murray was struggling.

Re Stephens - There wasn't a lot wrong with him last season....... But if he steps up another level that would be great.

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